"Fountain of Youth" on YouTube!!!

[Tony]

I think of Fountain as a dry run for Fake: he even repeats a line in both:

"We're getting ahead of ourselves."

I've always felt Welles had to be part of it- popping in and out, at the centre; strange that the 3 major films he didn't finish, he didn't act in: Ambersons, Wind and Quixote.

[Glenn Anders]

You got it, KID!!

Glenn

[Roger Ryan]

I've always felt Welles had to be part of it- popping in and out, at the centre; strange that the 3 major films he didn't finish, he didn't act in: Ambersons, Wind and Quixote.

I agree that Welles very much liked to be a part of the films he directed, but I disagree with the second half of the statement. If we consider AMBERONS unfinished by Welles, we must allow LADY FROM SHANGHAI, MR. ARKADIN and TOUCH OF EVIL to be considered in the same state of incompletion since Welles lost control (or left the project) at a similar point in post-production in each instance.

[Tony]

Roger: Actually, I think you could make even a stronger argument: as you well know, he completed a final cut of Ambersons in Florida just before leaving for Brazil, and it was final save a few minor tweaks. But he never achieved a final cut of Evil, Shanghai, or Arkadin.

But what I was trying to say is that I've always felt, on a cosmic plane level that it was strange how, out of the films he directed, Ambersons, Wind, Quixote and even It's All True didn't see completion (though he did narrate all of them). But of the dozen films he directed that saw completion (by him and/or a studio editor/janitor) all of them featured him in a central acting role. You could argue the exception is The Trial, but he is central in a schematic/ symbolic sense: he is the physical embodiment of the machine that is bent on destroying K. And not only that, but he also (in the priest role) represents organized religion as an accomplice to the machine. And he narrates the film. So he is, in this more diffuse sense, at the centre of the Trial with Tony Perkins's K.
As for the other films: Kane, Stranger, Shanghai, Macbeth, Othello, Arkadin, Evil, Chimes, Immortal and Fake, he is inarguably the centre in every way.

Now it seems to me that all this begs the question: what about films planned that weren't even started, but which had Welles at the centre as a character, or at least as an important character, such as Dreamers, Ring, Cradle and Lear?

Well, by then I believe he was too weak in every way to push a project through.
So: when he was strong, if he was at the centre, then the film could be born.
But when he's not there at the epicentre: Ambersons, IAT, Quixote and Wind: even though he narrates all of them, it's not enough too push the film through to completion...
...I mean not enough on the cosmic plane, the orphic source of his creativity.

[ToddBaesen]

Tony:

Unfortunately, Welles never did get around to narrating THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND. He also never narrated IT'S ALL TRUE. Obviously, he wanted to narrate both films, but never got the chance to do so.

However, I think you are quite correct in pointing out that of all of Welles projects that were never completed to his satisfaction, or were re-edited by the studio, the most important ones were indeed films he did not act in.

The three major projects being:

AMBERSONS

IT'S ALL TRUE

THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND

However, regarding DON QUIXOTE: Welles did record a narration for the film, as well as several other voices for the soundtrack, and apparently appeared in the film reading chapters of DON QUIXOTE to Patty McCormack... so calling this a film he didn't appear in may be a 50/50 proposition at best, since he clearly did appear in the film at one point in it's conception.

[Glenn Anders]

I don't know about a "cosmic plane" or "orphic source," Tony, but your basic point, with exceptions, is well taken. We might add that for over ten years after he came to Hollywood, Welles was desired as a leading actor, even a romantic star, at least a hypnotic villain, in many a Hollywood vehicle. The studios would much rather have had his services as a performer rather than those of the all too rambunctious director or writer of exotic screenplays he wanted to be.

It could be argued that, though he had an excellent eye for talent, the actors he cast in pictures where he did not appear were either not yet stars, character actors well past their prime, or foreigners not yet well-known to American audiences. An Orson Welles' film seemed to require the presence of an Orson Welles.

On the other hand, a fairly long list of more conventional "studio pictures," could be drawn up that might well have had the name "Orson Welles -- Check loan-out possibility" pencilled-in for a part on early screen drafts. For instance, Welles would have been ideal for the part of Dimitrios Makropoulos in A MASK FOR DIMITRIOS (1944), a follow up to Welles' adaptation of Eric Ambler's JOURNEY INTO FEAR (1942), in which he had already taken the part of recurring Ambler character, Colonel Haki. Welles essentially would play the part of a Post-War Dimitrios as Harry Lime in THE THIRD MAN (1948), and as I've speculated before, the plot of A MASK FOR DIMITRIOS is much like an inside-out MR. ARKADIN (1955).

If Warner Brothers had been able to borrow him, if he had been intrigued, if he had felt the need, Welles might have played both Colonel Haki AND Dimitrios! That's what the Studios, in those days, would have considered "getting their money's worth." Without all the messy legalities of dealing with "Genius Director Orson Welles and the Mercury Theater."

For another example, think of the advertising campaign which could have been mounted if Welles, in GILDA (1946), had played George Macready's Nazi rotter -- sword cane and all -- in Rio, opposite Wife Rita Hayworth and Glenn Ford. Welles was already in negotiations with Columbia Studio's Harry Cohn for the picture that would become THE LADY FROM SHANGHAI (which itself may be seen as a negative, dark subsequent re-telling of GILDA, with Welles in the Ford part, Hayworth now a jaded blonde wife, and fascist Everett Sloane as Ballin Mundson, wielding TWO canes, come to America). Once again, we have a tie-in to an earlier Welles project, this time with his aborted Brazillian epic, IT'S ALL TRUE. Perhaps, some of the South American footage lying in RKO's vaults might have been utilized as part of the deal. Rita Hayworth had newly borne Welles' baby daughter, Rebecca, which the fan magazines were full of. Pure gravy for PR Men. And I've read that Charles Lederer, Welles' pal, husband of his first wife, helped Ben Hecht doctor the script for GILDA, and that Welles had input on the finished work.

Enough, then. I invite others to suggest pictures that might have been fashioned with Welles in mind, pictures which physically similar actors played in, for good or ill. Welles was no dunderhead like George Raft, turning down masterpieces, but I'm sure a number of producers said in vain the famous line, " See if you can get me -- " I'll invite wellesnetters to make some dream suggestions for pretty good films Welles might have been sought for.

Welles was in the American public eye throughout the 1940's, and though his own pictures did not necessarily make money (an understatement), he was a draw, "a hot property." He was considered a commercial asset as an actor well into later life, always in some demand, whereas for most of his career, Hollywood directors, even writer-directors, with the possible exception of a beloved Charlie Chaplin or a brilliantly entertaining Preston Sturges, were ignored by the public. And so was Welles, except that his style was seen as increasingly bombastic, on screen and off, which eventually would work against him.

Glenn

[Tony]

I'l take up your challenge, Glenn, but only as a sideways segue:

I, and a friend of mine who is also a Wellesnut, have always thought that Rita should have played the Dietrich part in Evil: lines delivered by her such as "Honey, you're a mess" would have had heavy reverberation coming from Welle's most glamorous ex-wife. And she would certainly have been more convincing as a Latin, since she was!

[Harvey Chartrand]

Rita Hayworth once told a reporter that if she had remained married to Orson Welles, she would never have allowed him to become so obese. What a pity they split up.
THE LADY FROM SHANGHAI is my favorite Welles-directed film, partly due to its on-location, period exoticism... partly due to its unrelenting craziness. (Too bad the original uncut version never turned up in some long-abandoned studio vault.)
In 1946, Welles is already too portly to play the young romantic lead. He looks much more svelte and attractive a few years later in BLACK MAGIC, THE THIRD MAN and PRINCE OF FOXES, before finally giving up the battle of the bulge circa 1952. "En Europe, Orson se met à table," a Paris Match scribe wrote in Welles' obituary.

[Glenn Anders]

Tony: You broaden the range here, but I like your idea.

Rita Hayworth, of course, was a veteran of that old house in Hollywood when she met Orson Welles. She had made over fifty films by then, a majority of them, Spanish language, bit parts, or B-Pictures. And by 1958, when she was only about forty, hard drinking and emotional distress had caused her glorious beauty to fade and harden. She would have been a good choice to play Tanya in TOUCH OF EVIL, but in terms of style and acting delivery, Marlene probably deserved the nod (and got it).

[Other Hayworth connections, like the ones we're generally talking about, a kind of extended six degrees of separation, would be that the placement of Rita's image on the atom bomb at Bikini Atoll in 1946 might have contributed, in Welles' mind, at least, to her truly femme fatale persona in THE LADY FROM SHANGHAI (1947). And we know that Joseph L. Mankiewicz (brother of Herman J.) modeled THE BAREFOOT CONTESSA (1954) after the life of Rita Hayworth.]

But you are really not playing our game, Tony. Here is another bit of bait: I MARRIED A WITCH (1942). If Welles had not been down in Rio doing his part for the War Effort, we may imagine that he could have taken Fredrick March's role as Senatorial Hopeful Wallace Wooley (and all the other little Wooley's in American History), in a satire which has some remarkable echoes of CITIZEN KANE. Additional marks given for being an independent production, directed by French Genius Rene Clair, written (in part) by triple threat Welles' pal Marc Connelly, produced (uncredited) by another Welles' pal, Preston Sturges, with a small part taken by minor but memorable Mercury Player, Georgia Backus (CITIZEN KANE, THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS).

Now, Jennifer, the beautiful blonde witch who appears to destroy Wallace Wooley's political career on Halloween(!), snatching him away from his Ruth Warrick-like fiancee, Estelle Masterson, was played by Veronica Lake, a rival of Rita Hayworth back then in the Sex Goddess Department. If Welles had gone for Veronica, and married her, the course would have been the same probably, but the details would have been rather different. Anyway, Marlene is quoted as saying that Welles was not really attracted to blondes, which is why he wanted her to bring along her old black Gypsy wig(!) from GOLDEN EARRINGS for her part in TOUCH OF EVIL. On a similar page, however, he could have fallen for red-haired Susan Hayward(!), the second lead, Estelle. Now there would have been a team!

Let's extrapolate: I MARRIED A WITCH is said to be the inspiration for the TV Series BEWITCHED. The heroine of the series was played by Elizabeth Montgomery (daughter of Writer-Producer-Director-Star Robert Montgomery). And the part of her mother was famously taken by . . . .

And to put the thread back on course, we could take up the life of another blonde bombshell, Joi Lansing, who had parts in both TOUCH OF EVIL and "Fountain of Youth" in 1958, but died young through no fault of her own.

Well, this way leads to madness -- you get the hang of it now.

Your turn, Tony. I'll give you a random hint, drawn from the above. Think . . . Preston Sturges . . . .

Glenn

[Glenn Anders]

Harvey: I agree with you that Rita Hayworth would have helped him, if he had let her. His indulgences must certainly have sapped his protean energies. But Welles always appears to have married rather stable women, to keep himself on an even keel, then defeated their efforts to domesticate him.

See my reference above to Veronica Lake, who had a quite different set of problems, as her later husband, Director Andre De Toth, described in his memoirs.

Glenn

[Roger Ryan]

I'll take the bait.

Glenn, you're obviously suggesting that Welles could have been considered for the role of film director John Sullivan in Sturges' SULLIVAN'S TRAVELS, but I think he would have been horribly miscast in the role. Sullivan is a valued cog in the Hollywood studio machinery churning out garbage like ANTS IN YOUR PLANTS OF 1939 before his ego convinces him that he owes the world a masterpiece about the downtrodden (O BROTHER, WHERE ART THOU?). On the surface Sturges' film is a Capraesque morality tale resolving on the idea that a simple comedy will benefit humanity more than a realist drama (MEXICAN SPITFIRE SEES A GHOST over THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS anyone?). But the subtext suggests the film is more about the inflexibility of class and the folly of rich philanthropists. Sullivan is a dupe, a man whose ambition is beyond his talent and who is content to retreat back to his priviledged life once he begins to lose control over his adventure. Joel McCrea plays this character to perfection, but the character is the exact opposite of who Welles was and I don't think he would have fit the part.

If Welles was interested in pursuing a career as a film actor in the 40s, he would have easily fit into any of the roles played by Laird Cregar. The "Jack The Ripper" part in THE LODGER seems like a natural for him.

[mido505]

Welles as Walter Burns in His Girl Friday. Who wouldn't want to have seen Welles firing off that perfect dialogue, and directed by Howard Hawks?

Welles as Sheridan Whiteside in The Man Who Came To Dinner. Who wouldn't want to have seen Welles opposite Bette Davis? He played it later, but by then it was too late.

Welles as Big Daddy in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. Welles reunited with Liz Taylor!

Welles as Nero in the 1951 Quo Vadis!

Welles was born for the part of Jonathan, played by Kirk Douglas, in Vincente Minelli's The Bad and The Beautiful. Since Kirk was essentially playing Val Lewton, Welles' successor as golden boy at RKO, the irony would have been delicious!

Could Welles have pulled off Norman Maine in the 1954 A Star Is Born? The extra weight by then would have added to the characterization of a great matinee idol gone to seed. Didn't Welles have something going with Judy Garland at one point? Or was that Sinatra?

Like Harvey Chartrand, I am a fan of Welles' atypical, subdued, kindly performance in Tomorrow is Forever. How about Welles as the sympathetic Dr. Jaquith, in Now Voyager? Bette Davis again!

[Harvey Chartrand]

Laird Cregar and Orson Welles were lookalikes. They even sounded alike. Both men suffered from tremendous weight gain problems. Sadly, Cregar went on a crash diet and it killed him. Cregar died of a heart attack in December 1944. He was only 28, but like Welles, looked much older than his years.
I don't think Welles could have topped Cregar's towering performance as the demented pianist in Hangover Square (1945) – which benefited from a stirring piano concerto by Welles' old associate Bernard Herrmann – but it would have been interesting to watch Welles try.
Hangover Square, brilliantly directed by master of the macabre John Brahm, was Cregar's last film. Another tragic waste of talent...

[Harvey Chartrand]

The erudite Glenn Anders mentioned Veronica Lake, so this ties in with our discussion.

We are approaching the 35th anniversary of the death of Veronica Lake. Her death notice on the Internet Movie Data Base reads: 7 July 1973, Burlington, Vermont, USA (hepatitis). Mentioned elsewhere as a cause of death is acute renal failure (another complication stemming from her chronic alcoholism).

What was Veronica Lake doing in Burlington at the time of her death? Did Ms. Lake's untimely death at age 53 pass unnoticed or did the media play up the tragedy of her early passing from complications relating to her alcoholism and schizophrenia? Why did the Hollywood blonde screen siren of the 1940s die alone in the Green Mountain State – broke, prematurely aged, badly in need of a dental plan and estranged from her three surviving children?

From Wikipedia: “Following a string of broken marriages and long struggles with mental illness and alcoholism, Veronica Lake died almost destitute.” After years of unemployment, she made a film in Montreal in 1966 for which she was paid only $10,000 – "Footsteps in the Snow", which was never released to theatres in Canada or broadcast on CBC or CTV, the only two major networks here at the time. "Footsteps in the Snow" is probably a lost film by now.

From Answers.com: “At the time of her death of hepatitis at the age of 53 in 1973, Veronica Lake was drinking heavily, working as a cocktail waitress, and was married to her fourth husband, a fisherman.”

Harlan Ellison wrote a wonderful novella based on the Veronica Lake tragedy – The Resurgence of Miss Ankle-Strap Wedgie. I recommend it highly.

Veronica Lake’s lonely and sordid death in Vermont overshadows her considerable impact on pop culture. As difficult as Ms. Lake might have been to work with, she was a cultural and fashion icon who made a lot of money for the studios in her prime. It is hard to fathom how she was allowed to sink into such complete obscurity in her lifetime. You’d think that a few of her former colleagues would have extended a helping hand.

Anyway, here’s what the girl with the peek-a-boo hairstyle looked like in Flesh Feast, her last film, made in 1970. Check out these images from that cinematic atrocity at http://www.brainsonfilm.com/ffeast.html

Tying this all in with Welles... no, I don't think Veronica Lake and Orson Welles would have been happy united in holy matrimony.

[mido505]

Rex Harrison was perfection as Capt. Daniel Gregg in The Ghost and Mrs. Muir, but Welles would have been very interesting in the part. Reunited with Bernard Herrman!

Welles could have been a success in any of a number of parts played by Edward G. Robinson, but the role of the sadistic, psychotic, but brilliant Captain "Wolf" Larsen in 1941's The Sea Wolf might as well have been written for him.

The thought of Welles in a Hitchcock movie is mouth watering! Could he and Hitch have gotten through a shoot without a major meltdown? Here are some tantalizing possibilities: Welles as Uncle Charlie, played by his buddy Joe Cotten, in Shadow of a Doubt. Welles as Willy, the conniving Nazi, in Lifeboat. Imagine Welles opposite Tallulah Bankhead! James Stewart was miscast in Rope. Could Welles have pulled off the part of Rupert Cadell? Given Welles' late life preoccupation with homosexual themes, and Hitchcock's daring decision to film all of Rope in ten minute takes, that could have been an awesome collaboration! Finally, how 'bout a silent, slovenly Welles as the murderous neighbor, Lars Thorwald, in Rear Window.

I can't figure out how to shoehorn Welles into one of the films of his idol, John Ford. The Walter Pidgeon part in How Green Was My Valley?

Burgess Meredith once said of his friend Charles Laughton, "when Charles was just sitting in a chair, doing nothing, he was doing too much". He could have said the same about Orson. Here is a real stretch, going back to the more subdued Welles of Tomorrow is Forever: Welles as the cowardly school teacher, Albert Lory, in This Land Is Mine, directed by the great Jean Renoir, Welles' favorite director.