The original Desdemona is no more

[tonyw]

Her performance in THE HALLIDAY BRAND is so exceptional.

[mido505]

Thank you, Harvey, for referring to my carefully thought out posts detailing the influence of Robert Graves on Welles' art as "malarkey". They may very well be the worst sort of baloney, but since I have openly come to your defense in the past for some of your more outrageous assertions on this site, for which you thanked me profusely, I would think that a simple sense of courtesy and reciprocity would temper your disgust at my outrageous hijacking of this thread in order to imperiously impose my pompous, ideologically retrograde, and wholly jejune analysis of the Wellesian oeuvre on the Wellesnet membership. I guess you figure you have enough enemies here; one more won't matter. After all, what do the feelings of one touchy and misguided Wellesnetter matter when you've donned the armor and waded into battle and reclaimed the thread to defend the honor of the recently departed and not-so-nearly-enough lamented Betsy Blair! She was in Marty! And she was almost Welles' Desdemona in Othello, except that, well, except that Welles fired her for being wrong for the part! And then she went on to do...nothing! But that was not her fault, she was blacklisted, but at least she was on the right side of that political fight, unlike that evil shitbag Elia Kazan, who directed ten or so masterpieces but spilled his guts to the fascist House UnAmerican Activities Commitee and therebye forfeited any claim he might have to an Oscar or something! So thank you, Betsy Blair, may you rest in peace, for giving us one good performance in one good film, and then sacrificing it all for the sake of the Revolution! Workers of the world, unite! And thank you, Harvey, for posting that evocative still of the evanescent Ms. Blair, in all her divine glory - it merely confirms the observation by Micheal MacLiammoir to Welles that I quoted earlier, namely, that "she has a face like a golf ball."

[ToddBaesen]

I was thinking about posting a reply like Harvey's suggesting that the Robert Graves thoughts be taken to a new thread, because they had nothing to do with Betsy Blair and Othello, but I also think Mido and Glenn made many interesting points, that are certainly not malarkey, so obviously they should be continued, but just not on this thread.

So, please before this thread gets locked for any further nastiness, why doesn't Glenn or Mido start a "Robert Graves influence on Welles thread?"

I'd start one myself, but to be honest, I've never read anything by Robert Graves...

[mido505]

Todd, your post is a perfect example of the old adage, "you attract more flies with honey"...

My next pontification on Welles and the White Goddess will be relegated to its own thread.

You may not have read anything by Graves, but I suspect you may have seen something by him - he wrote the novel upon which the great BBC series I Claudius was based. He's almost forgotten now, but Graves was once very central to the culture.

[Glenn Anders]

Had not Toddy Baesen stuck his foot into this discussion, certainly at a time when Wellesnet may go out of business, in part, over this kind of thing, I would not be making further comment.:

1) There was nothing wrong with this thread's history until an unwarranted insult was made toward mido505's superb applications of Robert Graves "White Goddess" theories to the works of Orson Welles, his putative choices for the role of Desdemona, in particular. The insult was wrapped around an opinion which proved that without facts to back them up, not all opinions are so equal as others. Even from so distinguished a source as Harvey Chartrand.

2) To be accurate, it is true that "The original Desdemona is no more." But her name was not Betsy Blair (who was Welles' third choice). His camera-ready first choice was Lea Padovani, probably the best embodiment of Welles' (and Graves') white goddess obsession, but she died in 1991 -- unremarked on this board, to my knowledge.

3) Betsy Blair, connected to Orson Welles in rather slim fashion, was given a respectful tribute for the politically and artistically committed woman she appears to have been, and for the troubled career she had. Her marriage to Director Karel Reisz (WHO'LL STOP THE RAIN, 1978), and subsequent career, mostly in minor films and TV plays, suggests that she was an admirable survivor.

4) But Toddy: it is a shame, when you claim that you have never read Robert Graves, that you did not first consult your friend and mentor, Larry French, who ardently published Graves' poem, "1915" over two years ago. In regard to my remarks reacting to Mr. French's article, on September 9, 2006, you posted the following:

"Glenn,

"Thanks for that info on Robert Graves. I'd forgotten that Charles Laughton's I, CLAUDIUS was based on Graves book. And of course, Welles might have directed Laughton later on in Bertolt Brecht's GALILEO.[sic].

"And to M TEAL thanks for the reference to THE GREEK MYTHS. Here is an excerpt from the introduction:

"From The Introduction to Robert Graves' GREEK MYTHS (1955)."

You then go on to quote from the Introduction at some length, presenting by way of Graves some of the very ideas mido505 analyzed, clearly underpinning possible misgivings Orson Welles may have had in casting the plain, diminutive Betsy Blair as his third choice for the role of Desdemona.

Why humiliate mido505 for some of the best imaginative ideas presented around here in some time? You might have saved yourself trouble about your disclaimed involvement with white goddesses by actually consulting the links I gave in my last post. Here is one of them:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=520&p=11874#p11874

Glenn

[The Night Man]

Why humiliate mido505 for some of the best imaginative ideas presented around here in some time?

Unless I've completely lost my mind I can see no evidence of Todd having "humiliated" mido. What are you talking about, Glenn?

And if Harvey provides some backup for his opinion I have no problem with his contribution to this thread, either. Granted "malarkey" is a strong characterization but if that's what he thinks of Graves' theory let's hear him out. Mido's points are certainly well-made, compelling even, and I acknowledge Welles' interest in Graves' work, but I still have reservations of my own about the White Goddess business. Shouldn't we be entertaining all opinions on the subject? Surely mido's adult enough to stand a bit of disbelief, even if bluntly put.

This is a place to discuss Welles and his work. Do we really want our "discussions" to consist of nothing but fawning agreement? That's not a discussion, it's an echo chamber.

[mido505]

As Michael Corleone put it so memorably in the, I think, unfairly maligned Godfather III: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in..."

I thank you Glenn, for your spirited defense, although I would like to point out that I took no offense at Todd's post. I thought it rather reasonable, and genial, which is why I assented to his request without rancor.

And I would like to suggest, Night Man, that you don't take a Glenn's response to Todd too seriously. They are obviously friends, who like to spar in that competitive/combatitive manner that only friends can, usually after a few too many Carl Kickery gimlets imbibed at the, yes, mythical HaRa Club in sunny San Fransisco.

It was not Glenn, nor Todd, nor you, nor myself who attempted to shut down discussion for the sake of fawning assent, it was Harvey, who rudely dismissed an interesting tangent as malarkey without adding anything of value himself. As Harvey is notorious for dropping high impact opinion bombs on an unsuspecting Wellesnet populace, and then getting pilloried for it, and I have come to his defense, and been equally pilloried for it, I thought his post unseemly and ungracious, and called him out on it.

Harvey's post was also, in many ways, flat out wrong, in fact and in spirit. As Glenn correctly notes, Harvey's initial assertion that Betsy Blair was Welles' original Desdemona was incorrect. My first two responses to Harvey's initial post corrected that error, detailed the history of Welles' search for a Desdemona, and suggested a few reasons why Welles ultimately cast Suzanne Cloutier in the role instead of Blair. Glenn's contribution deepened and enlarged the discussion, which in turn set me off on the White Goddess tear. But it is all ultimately about Betsy Blair, and why Welles didn't cast her in Othello, I just have a more mythical and psychological explanation for it, that's all.

I don't know about anyone else here, but I love the way the threads at Wellesnet jot off in unsuspecting directions. It keeps the place interesting. When I have a little extra time, I sometimes go back and read old threads from inception, and am continually surprised at the fascinating directions in which they flow. Why not? And who cares? And if a little crankiness surfaces now and again, big deal! Add a little humor into the mix and you've got a potent cocktail! I've never seen Jeff shut down a thread unless it got mean, profane, or just plain ugly. It's like the British Parliament around here; once and awhile someone might throw a shoe, but MP's rarely get escorted out!

So in that spirit let me let me ask this question - did Francis Coppola read Graves, and watch I Claudius, in the period before he made Godfather III? Because after the manno a manno theatrics of the first two installments, in Godfather III, the women are running the show. In particular, Talia Shire, as sister Connie, is transformed from a shrill, mousy irrelevence into a magnificent matriarch, pulling strings and manipulating the men, in order to keep the family together. Her stunning performance is almost equal to that of Sian Phillips (wife of Peter O'Toole) as Livia, wife of Augustus and mother of Tiberious, in I Claudius.

[Tony]

Personally, I'm tired of all the big babies around here. Let's argue, damn it, and be men about it. Everbody's so godamn sensitive, and then Jeff locks the thread. Now I am TOTALLY against locking threads- who cares if somebody thinks somebody else's ideas are garbage? Somebody else can defend them or support them. Most of us will never meet eachother, so we can say what we truly feel, and not have to worry: isn't that great? If we're constantly worried about being censored, then spirited discussion will dry up, and so will the site.

Act like men, not babies, godamn it!

Mido: stop whining: put your theory out there, and see what happens.
Some will like it, and some will think it's B.S.

Who cares? It's all just opinions! If this place gets any more "gentlemanly c. 1910", it will surely wither and die.

[Glenn Anders]

Nightman: I apologize for not delineating my antecedents. When I wrote, "Why humiliate mido505 for some of the best imaginative ideas presented around here in some time?" I was being careless. The question was really directed elsewhere, and only toward Toddy in regard to the Uriah Heap-ish quality in his "me-tooing" of Harvey Chartrand's judgment.

Tony, I agree with you to quite a far point. I believe the criteria should be: Do we have facts to back up our opinions? Or are we simply being insulting? Do we attack on faulty evidence? Do we claim never to have read material in evidence, when previously we claimed we had? Do we form conclusions about books or material we haven't read or experienced? A moderator, or someone like Toddy or like myself, like any of us, should attempt to prevent a discussion from degenerating into guttersnipe. Within those parameters, I say let it rip, for we should all be informed ladies and gentlemen. That is why we are here.

You are right, mido505, I am close to Todd Baesen, and we do have a laugh sometimes about these dustups, but that does not mean he should not be given a deserved public ducking on occasion [as should I or any of us, if we deserve it], when he talks through his cap or fails to do justice to his friend and mentor, Lawrence French, whom some have said has always acted like a father toward him. Toddy just should be polite, correct, and remember where he came from -- again as should we all, as it applies.

BTW, mido505, I also like GODFATHER III, consider the film the most satisfying of the Godfather Trilogy, a perfect denouement. It occurs to me that our discussion of the controversy over Betsy Blair's selection and "firing" as Welles' Desdemona bears some resemblance to Coppola's second or third (emergency) choice of his daughter, Sophia Coppola, for the part of Michael Corleone's daughter, the ultimate lost prize of the Corleone familly. In the eyes of certain critics, that performance singlehandedly ruined GODFATHER III. I've never understood the judgment. What Sophia Coppola lacked in experience, she made up for in innocence, and the obvious transference of her loving, frustrated father-daughter relationship from her father to the character of Michael Corleone.

To strengthen your potential thesis, mido505, consider Sophia's Mary Corleone (The Maiden), Diane Keaton's Kay Adams Corleone Michelson (The Goddess) and Talia Shire's Connie Corleone Rizzi (The Crone). Looks like a pretty snug fit for a Robert Graves' interpretation to me.

Just as many critics have traced APOCOLYPSE NOW back to Joseph Conrad's "Heart of Darkness" -- Coppola's wife connected the film with Welles' radio and screen adaptation Conrad's novella -- the latter part of the film has been linked to The Golden Bough by Sir James Frazer, and it's a hop, skip, jump, from there to Robert Graves. Obviously, though Graves and his White Goddess theory of artistic scholarship have now been forgotten in the popular mind, evidently an easy subject for derision these days, any ambitious student of Western Culture coming of age in the 1950's or 60's, like a Francis Ford Coppola, would have been familiar with Graves and his works.

[In Berkeley, sometime in the early 1960's, I sat in on a "Sensory Reporting" poetry writing group, conducted by a distinguished writing coach of the time, Lawrence Hart. He invoked Robert Graves, and claimed that "the moon as metaphor" was THE primary influence on the finest of Western Literature, poetry, and drama.]

Betsy Blair, even more than Sophia Coppola, would have had her work cut out for her -- like a potentially delicious slice of green cheese -- had she kept her job as the Moon Maiden of Orson Welles' OTHELLO.

Should you wish to read my interpretation of GODFATHER III, mido505, and the other segments of the Corleone Trilogy, look here:

http://www.epinions.com/review/mvie_mu- ... 5796-prod5

Glenn

[Harvey Chartrand]

I stand corrected. In a message from 2002, I wrote: "After being outed as a Commie, Edward Dmytryk moved to England, where he directed what some critics claim is a masterpiece: Give Us This Day (1949) – aka Christ in Concrete – with Sam Wanamaker and Lea Padovani (who was having a very stormy relationship with Welles at the time; she was his original choice to play Desdemona in Othello).
However, I do not regret my blunt comments about the intrusion of a lengthy discourse on Robert Graves and his White Goddess theory into a thread dealing with Betsy Blair and her involvement in Orson Welles' Othello. For all I know, Ms. Blair may have spent more time on the film (she says a year in her memoir) than the fiery Lea Padovani.
Besides the Welles connection, another parallel can be drawn between Betsy Blair and Lea Padovani – the Hollywood blacklist.
Glenn Erickson (DVD Savant) writes: "The 1949 Christ in Concrete was hounded from American screens after one or two bookings. Its director, writer, and several cast members filmed it in England after being driven from Hollywood by the blacklist. This absorbing emotional experience is a socially conscious scream by artists not yet ready to surrender. The disc cover calls it a 'suppressed master work', which for once is no exaggeration."
So it is for Give Us This Day – a film that is still rarely seen – that Ms. Padovani is best remembered today, if she is indeed remembered very much at all, as so many actors of her generation are gradually being forgotten.
Judging by photos taken circa 1950, Ms. Padovani certainly had the requisite good looks (with a dash of exoticism) for the role of Desdemona.

[Tony]

Glenn: you wrote:"Toddy just should be polite, correct, and remember where he came from -- again as should we all, as it applies."

I hope you're kidding! Let's NOT be polite, correct, and remember where we came from: this should be a gloves off arena, where we air our pompous ideas and theories, and others knock the stuffing out of us, and we argue back. I'm fighting for the spirit of good argument- and if anyone is impolite- water off the duck's back! I believe that unless we loosen this place up, and have a lot less of "I commend you dear sir for the essential correctness of your stated views, hrumph, hrumph.." this site will die. For too many months (years?) it's been a funeral home. But it used to be great...

Let's get lively! Let's throw out the pomposity or....we might as well just e-mail eachother. Let's disagree, strongly! Or agree, strongly- let's debate, and let's not get too sensitive.

It's only a movie!!!

[Glenn Anders]

Thanks, Harvey. I guess Betsy Blair and Lea Padovani both have their place.

I have never seen CHRIST IN CONCRETE (and for years, got the actual production mixed up with SALT OF THE EARTH), but I have read the short story and novel on which it is based. The short story is one of the great reading experiences of my life. [I read it when I was maybe fifteen.]

Tony: you're right. It is only a movie ( and some people we never met). Relax. We seem to have worked it out without the help of Big Brother. And so, all is well. Many of us have had periods of discomfort here, including yourself, if memory serves me.

Anyway, peace to Betsy Blair and everyone else.

Glenn

[Alan Brody]

To strengthen your potential thesis, mido505, consider Sophia's Mary Corleone (The Maiden), Diane Keaton's Kay Adams Corleone Michelson (The Goddess) and Talia Shire's Connie Corleone Rizzi (The Crone). Looks like a pretty snug fit for a Robert Graves' interpretation to me.

Yesterday I watched the 1963 film Wild River, directed by Elia Kazan, some ten years after his infamous HUAC testimony. Montgomery Cliff plays a representative of the Tennessee Valley Authority in the 1930's, sent to persuade an isolated farm woman and her family to give up her land so a dam can be built. Aside from the fact that Welles himself may have dealt with the TVA when he was a political columnist, I was struck by the fact that there were three generations of women in the family: the woman herself (the Crone?), her daughter, played by Lee Remick (the Goddess?), and a grandaughter (the Maiden?). The isolated rural setting only seemed to enhance this paganistic vibe. I Guess Mido has us thinking in 'triple goddess' terms, although having read a biography of Robert Graves a few years ago, I'm tempted to question whether he was entirely sane or not. For one thing, he was much more masochistic with his 'muses' then the domineering Welles could have ever been, despite Welles' claim to have been abused by Padovani.

You note, Glenn, correctly, that Graves was not the first to bring the White Goddess into prominence. In fact, I was first put on her scent, as it were, not by Graves, but, secondhand, by Gore Vidal, who for other reasons led me to Henry Adams, who turned out to be, among other interesting things, an early (late?) acolyte of Our Lady.

Ever see the Modern Library's list of the 100 greatest English non-fiction books of the 20th Century?
http://www.randomhouse.com/modernlibrary/100bestnonfiction.html

Also, speaking of Vidal, you might enjoy this Youtube tidbit from election night, both sad and hilarious at the same time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6sTpilBjMc

[Glenn Anders]

Alan: I suppose your choice to illustrate Graves' theory is easily as good as mine. You might have added that Betsy Blair vehemently refused to ever forgive the Director of WILD RIVER, Elia Kazan, for "naming names" during the McCarthy Period. [And so, we touch base with Harvey.]

The contrast between the non-fiction list compiled by the Modern Library Editors and that of the Readers (presumably on the basis of a poll) is astounding, Alan. What a generation gap! The Liberal Establishment vs the New Conservatives! Interesting, that The Education of Henry Adams [much discussed here] is First on the Editors List but 51st among the Readers' choices. More so, on the rather conventional "liberal" Editors' list, James Frazer's The Golden Bough, a prime source for Graves' White Goddess Theory, is down at #90 while the same book is up at 31 in the Readers' estimation. [I should have thought, it would be the other way about.] And the Editors choice of Graves' autobiographical novel, Goodbye to All That, whereas the Readers selected his The White Goddess, may or may not be surprising, depending upon one's point of view.

[I was also pleasantly startled to see American Gay by my friend and Epinions colleague, Stephen O. Murray, come in at #53 on the Readers' list. I wonder if Todd Baesen and Larry French know that? I introduced Mr. French to Steve at an Epinions "Meet Up" in Burlingame, CA, several months ago.]

I see the lists carry a copyright of 2007. Considering that the Readers' List Top Ten consists of books which support the general philosophy and attitudes of Ayn Rand (Numero Uno in the column), and in light of America's economic collapse after following Ms. Rand's philosophy, I wonder what the Readers List will be like eight years from now?

As for Gore Vidal's ramble on Election Night, to the amusement of the BBC's David Dimbleby and friends, I think we should recall, Alan, that Gore Vidal may be America's most distinguished living American writer, a political candidate, an actor, author of 25 novels, three dozen TV and screen plays, biography, several memoirs, mysteries, poetry, political commentary, and most importantly, over 200 essays. [He is no doubt our finest literary essayist since Edmund Wilson.] Vidal is also 83, has suffered from diabetes for over 20 years, gave up his villa in Italy to buy a home in LA, close to Cedars of Lebanon Hospital. He has never gotten over the death of Howard Auster, his partner for decades.

And so, late on Election Night last, Gore Vidal was "both sad and hilarious at the same time, " as you note, but maybe we should give him some slack. It was late. Vidal looked as if he had been ill. And it is possible that on seeing a black man elected President, something he had awaited all his life since being a teenager, Gore Vidal may have taken a glass of Champagne -- maybe a couple.

Here is Vidal, a week later, looking and sounding much more like his old [younger] self:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjoV29dt4AQ

It is said that Vidal even asked Joanne Woodward to marry him once, but she was taken by Paul Newman. He might have gone after Betsy Blair when she left Gene Kelly to go to Europe. I doubt it. But who knows?

Glenn

[Alan Brody]

True Glenn, the List seems to reflect not only a generation gap, but a pretty serious political one as well. Ayn Rand looks to be, as you said, the most notable symbol of this gap. Did you notice what was #99 on the Reader's list? Jonathon Rosenbaum's Placing Movies. But then, L. Ron Hubbard's Dianetics was #2, so if I were Rosenbaum, I'm not sure if I'd be flattered or not.

Mido's quoting of the Henry Adams book made me remember the list, and though I've never read the book, the fact that the excerpt is in tune with Graves's theories has piqued my curiosity a bit more. Both Adams and Welles seemed nostalgiac for the Middle Ages, for some kind of pre-Raphealite 'age of innocence'. Graves seems to have taken this nostalgia to a whole new level, although you can find many online opinions that, like Harvey, would dismiss his 'White Goddess' theories as malarkey that existed only in Graves's imagination.

BTW, there's also the Modern Library's companion list for novels, which is interesting as well in it's contrast between Editor and Reader tastes. Tarkington's Magnificent Ambersons just makes the Editor's list at #100, but is not on the Reader list. You have to wonder how many of them have even read it. Considering the non-fiction list, the Reader choice of Atlas Shrugged for #1 fiction book can hardly be a surprise.

Thanks for the other Vidal video. Yes, I've read a few online commenst that he looked more then a little tipsy on the election night video. I believe Vidal was on the board that chose the editor's list.

But with a nod to Harvey, back to Betsy Blair for a second: I find myself wondering whether she defied HUAC before or after she filmed her Othello scenes for Welles. If before, Welles may have influenced her or she may have even been targeted by HUAC for associating with Welles. If after, Welles may have wanted to reward her with the part of Desdemona for her courage. It's interesting to note, however, that Elizabeth Wilson, wife of Richard Wilson and Welles's assistant on It's All True, did name names for HUAC, according to Joe McBride's latest Welles book. Apparently, Welles must have forgiven her for it; if he knew about it, that is.