Ambersons score + script = mindblowing - Also, extraneous scenes in long version?

[Narshty]

I've just received that 1990 CD of Herrmann's original score and read the cutting continuity in Robert Carringer's book while listening to the appropriate cues, and I'm absolutely overwhelmed.

Now I can finally understand why preview audiences hated its sombre mood, because it really is one tragedy after another, and when you hear the score you realise the actual tone of all that lost footage (especially that incredibly mournful reprise of "First Letter Scene" that was to play over the end titles). The whole middle and final acts were just the dying sighs of the characters. If I could only keep one piece of music from the film, it'd be "First Nocturne" that originally played during the porch scene with Fanny, Isabel and George.

With RKO's removal of so much music, you see to how great an extent the film's heart and power went with it. If the original version is ever discovered, it would be one of, if not *the* most impossibly moving film ever made.

Looking at all the stills in Carringer's book, the tiny glimpses of lost footage in the trailer and those on this website (the terrifying image of Isabel decapitated by the shadows is the one that stands out most for me) only makes the agony and the ecstacy ever more vivid.

As it stands, The Magnificent Ambersons is my favourite film, bar none. Were the full version ever recovered, it'd most likely become my all-time favourite work of art.

One last thing: I've always been under the impression that the 131-minute version of the film was not Orson's final cut but more of a first assembly version and he never really got to complete the film. Admittedly there are only two scenes that I can see as superfluous (the "Friends of the Ace" sequence near the start and the very brief follow-up to the Chemist's scene in the pool hall) and the rest should certainly stay intact - far from being too long, it's an absolute marvel of economic narrative - but was 131 minutes his definitive cut?

I'd have thought Orson could see that the "Friends of the Ace" scene contributes nothing to the plot or our understanding of George and practically stops the film dead in its tracks during one of the most breathless opening sequences in all of cinema. Similarly, that "flummoxed plum!" bit in the pool hall where the chemist brags to his friends about how his handsome visage made Lucy faint is a pretty off-key distraction from the tone of the surrounding sequences. Or am I completely way off base here?

[Glenn Anders]

Dear Narshty: I, for one, agree with you that Herrmann's full score for THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS is the most beautiful ever written for a film. The fact that Welles intended to cut much of the film to it emphasizes the classical shape of the project. Here, for perhaps the first time, would have been the full embodiment of the concept that Film at its best is the visual equivalent of poetry and music. One can only imagine the rage Herrmann felt when RKO hacked up the film, and therefore, what must be regarded as his masterpiece in the film score category. No wonder he sued to have his name taken off THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS, in its theatrical release.

I think you are correct in your understanding that Welles would have trimmed and shaped the 131 minute cut of . . . AMBERSONS. After all, except in the legendary 16mm work copy, down in Brazil, he had never seen it.

Might I suggest that the two scenes you object to may have had the purpose of further exploring the social context which produced the Ambersons, and helped later to destroy them. Welles might well have agreed with you assessment and eventually discarded them, broken them up in montage or used them in some different way.

Of all the artistic crimes in Hollywood's heyday, the destruction of Welles' conception of THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS was the most egregious.

Glenn

[Narshty]

Thinking about it, the "Friends of the Ace" scene not only establishes the social context, but also explains George's uncomfortability with them at the ball, and his fury at them intruding upon his daydream with Lucy on the porch. The scene with the chemist also adds a little local colour which might not go amiss.

There's no question in my mind whatsoever that AMBERSONS is the single greatest achievement and biggest tragedy in film history. To paraphrase Humphrey Bogart "Of all the films in all the towns in all the world, they walk over mine."

As it survives, it's an extremely frustrating experience to watch, even more so when one knows what's missing. Of course, you don't need a copy of the script in hand to tell you that the final act of the film doesn't make a lick of sense, in terms of both character actions and narrative plot (just how did they lose their fortune again?).

I agree wholeheartedly that it's an astoundingly beautiful score and the finest I've ever heard by a furlong. When one hears the oft-quoted anecdote that Herrmann considered Welles the only director he worked with who knew a damn thing about music, one suddenly understands what he means when you hear the actual compositions. Herrmann has clearly been asked by Welles to score the layers of emotion beneath what we see on-screen.

For example, in the lost scene where Isabel, Fanny and George sit on the porch shortly after Wilbur's death, a lesser director might have placed, say, a solo harmonica playing some wistful tune to suggest the lonely tranquility of the setting, but Herrmann scores it with one of the most heart-wrenchingly mournful pieces of music imaginable, at once making clear the deep sense of grief felt by all, and suggesting the death and decay of their entire world that's starting to creep in - with Wilbur's passing it's literally the end of an era.

Again, in the second porch scene with Fanny and the Major, the tone of the music is deeply tragic, even while Fanny talks optimistically about the headlight company. The cue brings in dramatic irony to the situation. We as an audience now know that the headlight company will fail, as will the apartments venture - the music makes it inevitable.

Almost always music simply underlines or intensifies what we can plainly see on the screen; rarely does it completely change our perception of what we're watching as it would have done in AMBERSONS. Welles understood this (as barely any director has since) and Herrmann had the genius to bring it to the forefront. In many ways, I feel as bad for Herrmann as I do for Welles - in terms of artistic innovation and staggering brilliance, he is to the world of film composing what Welles is to directing, and both men had their respective masterpieces needlessly mutilated in one fell swoop on account of studio politics - but at least Herrmann's manuscripts have thankfully survived and those exquisite melodies can be resurrected.

[Tony]

I remember OW saying that Benny's music was 50% of Kane; I'm sure OW would have said the same about Ambersons. That Herrmann had his name removed from Ambersons says a lot: 6 years later he believed Macbeth to be the best film OW had made and agreed to do the music, but when Ow started his dissappearing shenanigans, Benny bailed: He said "I don't want another Ambersons". Imagine Macbeth, Shanghai and Evil with Herrmann scores! More great loss...

See the "Fire" bio on Benny for info on this, and so much more...

[blunted by community]

The friends of the ace scene sets up george as spoiled brat, and a hypocrite.

Setting up george as a spoiled brat during the friends of the ace scene, and revealing him as a hypocrite during the ball scene, by what he says about, "not being into clubs and things like that anymore," paves the way for all the negative things said about george at the party.

FRIENDS OF THE ACE:
george is revealed to be a spoiled brat.

BALL:
george’s words contradict what we just saw him do at the club-house, that makes him a hypocrite.

Uncle Jack tells Eugene george is a shit.

George talks ignorant shit at the ball proving uncle jack right.

George bumps into that old man at the ball then pushes right past him, further proving he is a shit.

It all blends together pretty well; we learn about george, one clue at a time. That is all that a scene has to do not to be superfluous; put forth one piece of the puzzle. Not 9 pieces of the puzzle, as Howard Hawks has been known to do.

And the music that was supposed to be used during the major’s buggy scene kicks butt.

[blunted by community]

the film in it's completed form is as dark, and as frightening any one could imagine. and even darker than carringer's book reveals. the missing scenes in carringer's book are after robert wise's first tinkering; those missing scenes are longer, and darker in welles' screenplay.

and yes, i completely agree with carringer that the reason ambersons unraveled was because welles never put on the play hamlet. had absolutely nothing to do with WW2.... haaaaaaa!

[Jeff Wilson]

While doing research in back issues of Variety from mid to late 1941, I noticed at least two prominent articles about the extremely strong popularity of comedies and the comparative lack of interest in drama, which the articles tied into current events making people want to get away from the uncertainty of their situation. Welles maybe didn't care or even notice, but the seeds for Amberson's destruction were laid long before the movie's completion. Given the film's overwhelming elegiac tone, it's no wonder it got massacred. People did want to "laff," as the one preview audience member commented. Particularly after the war began. This certainly isn't the primary reason the film got cut up, but it fits into the overall mosaic.

[blunted by community]

well, those articles, like all articles are the opinion of the writer. if you look at other films of the era you will find dramas were all around. AMBERSONS was particularly dark, dealt with the dying of a great american family, the dying of an american way of life, which is what the germans, and japanese were trying to do, but in a different way than the automobile. radio was beating the into american homes day and night, movies were the only escape.

GRAPES OF WRATH made it, and it was released with no preview screenings. had GRAPES been previewed a few months after pearl harbor i think it would have gotten a more violent reaction than AMBERSONS.

i have never noticed any trend in films where drama was dying out and fluff was in, except maybe during ww2? but who knows. it certainly requires some comparison research to see what was pop in the late 30s

[Glenn Anders]

Interesting, Jeff. In a bloated way, we are living through a similar era today. We prefer mindless comedies and exploding faux epics to some of the better films of our period.

Glenn

[ChristopherBanks]

I would like to order this CD, could you post the details of it, Narshty? (record label, cat number etc)

I went to CDNOW to look it up and it brought up two CDs, one of "Ambersons" by itself and another dual "Kane/Ambersons" soundtrack.

[blunted by community]

the PREAMBLE cd was recorded the by australia symphony orchestra, and has the music that was taken out.

[colwood]

Christopher,

At Ambersons.com they have info on the soundtrack CD. And right now on Ebay, they have two auctions for it:

http://search.ebay.com/search....errmann

[Glenn Anders]

Yes, Herrmann's complete . . . AMBERSONS score is on Preamble (PRCD 1783 Stereo (DDD), Tony Bremner and the Australian Philharmonic Orchestra, in 21 tracks. Produced by Maria Vandamme in 1990, made in America by DMI, as Volume 1 of a projected Bernard Herrmann Anthology.

It is just a staggeringly poignant score, rising with hope and sinking into despair. In a review I did of the ten best Movie Scores ever, it is Number One on my list. (For a film, I guess, we shall never reallly see.)

The case contains a quite superb booklet, with a reproduction of Norman Rockwell's One Sheet for a cover. It describes the philosophy and history of the music. Each track is matched to the scene which was to be cut to it, and an outline shows that many tracks are matched in the rising and falling action. This outline may be in Carringer's book, which I have not read, but if anyone tells you Welles was always sloppy about details, have him read this discussion.

Hope this helps.

Glenn

[Le Chiffre]

Agree totally that the Preamble Ambersons CD by Bremner/Australia is an extremely valueable disc. But it does have a few minor flaws. For example, the music for the "1st Porch Scene" that Narshty cited is played far too fast. On the CD, it clocks in at 4 minutes 3 seconds, whereas the scene as it was in the original film ran 5 minutes and 30 seconds. Also, there are two important music cues missing. The first is when the dying Isabel is brought home in the carriage. This scene originally contained hushed strings playing tremelo. The second missing cue was for a shot of the Major's grave, a low, sombre brass chorale. The CD doesn't contain either of these, but other then that it's superb.

[Glenn Anders]

Dear mteal: Okay, I see what you mean. I would make two points:

1) In a film with such a confused history, in which cuts were made by so many hands, talented and otherwise, a film that was to have been largely cut to Herrmann's score, it is hard to know, in some cases, which scenes were trimmed according to what Welles might have wished, and which were not.

2) The Conductor and the Arranger may have wished to keep a concert symetry that went beyond the documentary goals of the disc. Their method may have resulted in a couple of alterations, on that account.

Anyway, we are agreed: A superb rendering of a superb score.

Glenn