Hunt for lost 'Magnificent Ambersons' footage in Brazil

[Roger Ryan]

I believe the alternate film titles were how Kane, Ambersons, and Journey into Fear were identified when released in Italy. For example, here's an Italian movie poster for The Fourth Estate...

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/592504894695698822/

Given how poorly film titles have been translated over the years, The Fourth Estate (a term used to describe how the power of the press or media advocates for or contextualizes political action), The Pride of the Ambersons, and Terror on the Black Sea are all pretty good alternate titles. And yes, I remember hearing somewhere that reels of films were given the nickname "pizzas" in Italy.

[Le Chiffre]

I was always intrigued by the Spanish title for Ambersons: EL CUARTO MANDEMIENTO (The Fourth Commandment). Ambersons is not an overtly religious film, but reference to the fourth of the Ten Commandments ("Honor they Mother and Father") does shine a slightly ironic light on one of the film's main themes.

I've also seen Spanish posters for Ambersons that just call it SOBERBIA (or Pride), touching on another theme in the film. At first I thought it would translate as "Suburbia", which strangely enough, would have worked too. I guess the European titles were translated to more clearly describe what the film was about.

Not sure what the film was called in Portuguese, but that might be something to keep in mind if and when the search team gets down to Brazil.

[JMcBride]

The opening title of Leo McCarey's 1937 film
MAKE WAY FOR TOMORROW says, "Honor Thy
Father and Thy Mother." The film shows how
the adult children in that film, to varying degrees,
fail to live up to that commandment as the elderly
parents are forced to separate. Welles was a great
admirer of that film and said "It would make a stone cry."
It was the film that Noda and Ozu adapted without
credit into their masterpiece TOKYO STORY.

Welles from youth had a great reverence for elderly people. And MAKE WAY FOR TOMORROW probably
influenced AMBERSONS, which is about a boy killing
his mother after ruining her life. Welles's primal
guilt, as he admitted later, was that he thought he
had killed his father. I believe he couldn't deal
with that situation as early as 1941-42, so he transposed
it onto the mother (AMBERSONS also reflects
his anguish over his mother's premature death and their last goodbye,
which he dramatizes in George's final scene with his mother). Most of Welles's other films are about
a man betraying another man he loves. In later films, most notably CHIMES
AT MIDNIGHT, the boy kills his surrogate father figure as his
actual father dies and he assumes his father's role. Welles
said CHIMES was about the young man's struggle between
his duties to two father figures.

[Steve Paradis]

In later films, most notably CHIMES
AT MIDNIGHT, the boy kills his surrogate father figure as his
actual father dies and he assumes his father's role.

Hal assumes the crown, turning his back on Falstaff--and the old man's face is filled with pride and joy, as well as pain, seeing what he has helped to make. Hal is king, as his father was, but the impulse to go among his soldiers on the eve of Agincourt doesn't seem like something his father would have done. It's after the film, of course, but the Hal of Henry V is more human than his father. It's the Falstaff strain in him.
Falstaff forgives Hal for doing what he must, and rejoices in his manhood. The father forgives his son for turning away from him, as every son must if he is to be his own man.
It would be good to think that Welles himself realized that.

[Wich2]

We do have to credit some of these threads already being in the source material though, yes?

(Of course, Orson's choice of pieces to work on/with factors in, too.)

Take care and be well,
- Craig

[Roger Ryan]

Also, we know about Welles' sense of guilt over his father's death because he told us. I tend to think that Welles was usually honest when he did discuss personal emotions, but his decision to reveal his feelings regarding the death of his father publicly may have been motivated by the same thing that attracted him to the conflicts in the material he chose or created: it made for good drama!

[Wellesnet]

From "The Complete Orson Welles Magnificent Ambersons", a website by Joseph Egan:
http://www.themagnificentambersons.com/

DAVID SELZNICK AND THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS

Part of the legend of AMBERSONS is that David Selznick upon seeing the long version suggested to RKO that a copy of the original cut should be donated to The Museum Of Modern Art. Some writers have argued that this is highly improbable as they question when Selznick could have seen the original and in fact, which version he might have referred to. First of all, even though Selznick had taken a four year hiatus from film making, Selznick still kept offices at the Culver Studios where Ambersons was shot. Second, cinematographer Stanley Cortez was under contract to Selznick when RKO borrowed Cortez for the film paying Selznick for Cortez’ services. As such it would be highly beneficial to Selznick to see Cortez’ work as soon as possible since if Cortez did well, he would become a more valuable asset for Selznick. In fact he did because Cortez was nominated for an Oscar for AMBERSONS. It should also be noted that the Mercury publicist set up screenings of the long version for the press prior to and even after the previews. That being the case, it would have been an easy matter for Selznick to see the film in its original form as it just meant a short walk from his office to a screening room. And, in those days no one said no to David Selznick.

Could the complete Ambersons be buried somewhere in the Selznick estate, or at MOMA? Another long shot, but you never know. After all, as Mr. Egan writes, "in those days no one said no to David Selznick."

[NoFake]

Could the complete Ambersons be buried somewhere in the Selznick estate, or at MOMA? Another long shot, but you never know. After all, as Mr. Egan writes, "in those days no one said no to David Selznick."

We could always ask. Not sure how to contact the Selznick Estate, but according to MoMA's website, their Archives office can be reached at (212) 708-9617 or archives@moma.org.

[RayKelly]

Could the complete Ambersons be buried somewhere in the Selznick estate, or at MOMA? Another long shot, but you never know. After all, as Mr. Egan writes, "in those days no one said no to David Selznick."

I find it hard to believe RKO would have made a dupe print for Selznick — who then took the secret to his grave! Even harder to believe he would not have told Welles, who he had a cordial relationship with.
Hazel Marshall, head of RKO’s stock-film library, incinerated the lost footage in December 1942. She confirmed the cremation took place in a conversation with Paramount executive Fred Chandler four decades later. Chandler combed the former RKO vaults for Ambersons, but located It's All True.
It's a long shot that something survived more than 75 years in Brazil, but that's the only (slim) hope.

[lionel59]

Hi. I am new to this post. Like others contributing, I love AMBERSONS and wish Josh Grossberg every success.
It is terrific that we have a few glimpses of the shattering, otiginal ending in the trailer. I recently purchased a still of Joseph Cotton and Agnes Moorehead which I am sure is from that ending (which was really the worst deletion of all-I was greatly mystified by the 'hospital scene' finale of the lacklustre remake, which was supposedly intended to be in line with Welles' original conception!)
I have the Vanity Fair article. Wasn't the complete version found in the late '60's and screened by an employee at the film exchange hijacked by gypsies? If so, could they have not sold it to someone? What a pity this man did not immediately call someone in Hollywood and safely secure the footage!
The fact that Welles was on foreign soil and this cut and alternate takes etc were shipped there is really our only hope that portions may still survive. I doubt there is anything left in the USA. Let's hope nitrate deterioration has not marred any surviving footage if/when it turns up.
Keep up the good work, Mr Grossberg!

[RayKelly]

Wasn't the complete version found in the late '60's and screened by an employee at the film exchange hijacked by gypsies? If so, could they have not sold it to someone? What a pity this man did not immediately call someone in Hollywood and safely secure the footage!

That's a new one! It would make a great movie.

[lionel59]

The gypsy incident is mentioned in the Vanity Fair article. The American employee said he ran the full AMBERSONS and then couldn't find the print again. If true, yes, it would make a good Mel Brooks film.

[Wellesnet]

With the backing of TCM, Josh Grossberg and his team will travel to Brazil in September 2021 to search for Orson Welles’ lost, longer version of The Magnificent Ambersons.

http://wellesnet.com/brazil-hunt-lost-ambersons

[Dan]

As reported on Indie Wire and Deadline -

https://www.indiewire.com/2021/04/magni ... 234630105/
https://deadline.com/2021/04/tcm-docume ... 234732933/

Unlikely but not impossible that any Ambersons footage will be found but the search for the footage should make an interesting documentary.

[tonyw]

WE can only live in hope.