Hunt for lost 'Magnificent Ambersons' footage in Brazil

[Dan]

Wasn't the complete version found in the late '60's and screened by an employee at the film exchange hijacked by gypsies? If so, could they have not sold it to someone? What a pity this man did not immediately call someone in Hollywood and safely secure the footage!

That's a new one! It would make a great movie.

The gyspy story is a good one. Way back when TCM had bulletin boards the most absurd theories about Ambersons were frequently posted.

[admusicam]

Always possible!

Just to share in the same subject, after shearching for the lost and unknown Lotte Lehmann live final winterreise concert recording during years, and a sort of epic quest, I finaly found the original and unique recording. It was on a wire recording, never heard since 1951, with impressive good sound.

Good luck! Treasures come to life when you profundly want for them....(Recall about TOSOW!!) and we all realy want for this Amberson print!

[Dan]

I finaly found the original and unique recording. It was on a wire recording, never heard since 1951, with impressive good sound.

How did you play a wire recording???

[Steve Paradis]

I finaly found the original and unique recording. It was on a wire recording, never heard since 1951, with impressive good sound.

How did you play a wire recording???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_recording
They sell them on eBay, but a well-equipped audio lab will have a couple in the back.

[admusicam]

I was realy surprised when I discover it was on wire recording. I know about this but never see or heard one of them. In France it was never used to record music but only voice with very poor sounding result.
In US there were quite Hi Fi results for the time (1945-1955)
I contacted some very specialists in sound preservation in France for making the best possible transfer and the result was astonishing.
It is so increadible to heard this so rare and fragile sound coming from such a fragile wire.

[Dan]

I knew about them which is why I was surprised you could play the wire recording back. This video goes into wire recorders in detail -

[admusicam]

The terrible nightmare is at 20' 00 on your video.
I knew about that possibility, and the fact you can lost many ninutes of music if it happen. During the process transfer time I was in a horrible heart stress state. But all go on the good way and the wire is now safe.

Many thanks for your interest and kind words and sharing the video about wire!

[lionel59]

Great news. Looking forward to hearing what takes place. Scouring the Brazilian archive should be step one. Going by the report made by the person quoted in Vanity Fair who said he found and ran the full version, it vanished soon afterwards. Why he didn't contact someone in Hollywood and lock up that print somewhere is beyond me.
However, I believe RKO also sent reels with many alternate takes. This may be findable. Hope so.

[Dan]

Great news. Looking forward to hearing what takes place. Scouring the Brazilian archive should be step one. Going by the report made by the person quoted in Vanity Fair who said he found and ran the full version, it vanished soon afterwards. Why he didn't contact someone in Hollywood and lock up that print somewhere is beyond me.
However, I believe RKO also sent reels with many alternate takes. This may be findable. Hope so.

We don't know if that's true, based on one person's memory. But if if it did happen remember that this was Brazil in the 1960s. Way before the internet, way before cheap international telephone calls.

[RayKelly]

Going by the report made by the person quoted in Vanity Fair who said he found and ran the full version, it vanished soon afterwards.

We don't know for certain if the archivist there actually ran it. The comment by Joshua Grossberg in Vanity Fair (April 8, 2010) was: “I think he actually projected it. But when he returned a few weeks later to look at the film more intently, it was moved away.”

[RayKelly]

On Instagram, the Welles estate commented on the hunt:

THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS was drastically recut and released by RKO Pictures in 1942 with a new ending that betrayed Orson Welles original vision. Nearly 80 years later, an effort is underway by @lostprintmovie to search for a copy of Welles’ original rough cut, which may -- or may not -- still exist somewhere in Brazil. Filmmaker Joshua Grossberg leaves in September to search for what some call the Holy Grail of cinema. He will spend up to two months in Brazil tracking down leads he has pulled together over the past 25 years. A documentary on his hunt for the lost print and how RKO treated Welles is set to air on @TurnerClassicMovies in June 2022. Ideally, it will be shown alongside the long lost print. "We know it’s a long shot but if these guys are able to find Orson Welles’ version of the film it would be one of the greatest discoveries in the history of cinema,” said Charlie Tabesh, a senior VP at TCM. “It’s too important not to try.”
Fingers crossed. #orsonwelles #magnificentambersons #wellescut @bibina.welles

[lionel59]

Going by the report made by the person quoted in Vanity Fair who said he found and ran the full version, it vanished soon afterwards.

We don't know for certain if the archivist there actually ran it. The comment by Joshua Grossberg in Vanity Fair (April 8, 2010) was: “I think he actually projected it. But when he returned a few weeks later to look at the film more intently, it was moved away.”

Good to hear what the Welles estate has to say
I also recall the daughter of the head of the Brazilian film exchange said that her father would have been highly unlikely to have destroyed the footage, as he was ordered to do by RKO.
I am no fan of the remake of AMBERSONS, which was supposedly done to honour Welles' original vision. The acting was not in the same class as the original, particularly by the actress who took on the Agnes Moorehead role (Agnes was eminently worthy of the Oscar she was nominated for but lost to Teresa Wright). Also, the ending was another sentimental hospital scene. Perhaps not as sugary as the 1942 retake, but certainly not the bitter, bleak ending of Welles' film set in the boarding house.
I have both the Criterion laserdisc set and blu ray. When playing the movie, I usually alter a couple of the latter scenes to restore them to at least their intended sequential order. I also stop it before the 'Disney ending', and display the original screenplay pages with photos. There is a lobby card taken from the original ending and fragments of it are preserved in the trailer.
I have been in contact with the very knowledgeable man who did the laserdisc commentary and wrote a book on the film. I am sure, like us, he is hopeful that something will be found.

[Steve Paradis]

I have both the Criterion laserdisc set and blu ray. When playing the movie, I usually alter a couple of the latter scenes to restore them to at least their intended sequential order. I also stop it before the 'Disney ending', and display the original screenplay pages with photos. There is a lobby card taken from the original ending and fragments of it are preserved in the trailer.

Given the precedent with Touch of Evil, I wonder that there hasn't been a release with just those changes -- Welles' order of scenes at the very least -- and a reconstruction of the great final scene, instead of leaving it to us to do as you did. Rights issues?

(Also have to note that the "Disney ending" is actually close to Tarkington's, and thankfully omitted the clairvoyant.)

[lionel59]

I have both the Criterion laserdisc set and blu ray. When playing the movie, I usually alter a couple of the latter scenes to restore them to at least their intended sequential order. I also stop it before the 'Disney ending', and display the original screenplay pages with photos. There is a lobby card taken from the original ending and fragments of it are preserved in the trailer.

Given the precedent with Touch of Evil, I wonder that there hasn't been a release with just those changes -- Welles' order of scenes at the very least -- and a reconstruction of the great final scene, instead of leaving it to us to do as you did. Rights issues?

(Also have to note that the "Disney ending" is actually close to Tarkington's, and thankfully omitted the clairvoyant.)

Thanks. I believe the dialogue by Cotten is similar in both endings and refers to the hospital scene reunion which I believe is in the original book, albeit with a clairvoyant involved.
The difference is all in regards to Fanny. In the Disney/RKO ending, she is smiling knowingly in response to what is being said (and Cotten's eyes give away-to me-that he is unhappy being a party to this retake). Welles chose to set this dialogue in the harsh environment of the Boarding house (the antithesis of the Amberson mansion both physically and socially) to highlight Fanny's forlorn state and bitterness at being cheated of Eugene's affections by Isabel seemingly from beyond the grave. In effect, his words reveal that he has only ever loved Isabel and her hopes were always in vain. Welles felt it was the best acting Moorehead had ever done on film. Let's hope the footage can be finally found in a usable condition!!

[Le Chiffre]

I'm curious as to who owns it. Ted Turner, I'm assuming. In that case, how much would he be willing to pay to get it back if, by some miracle, it is found, but the person who possesses it is not inclined to turn it over for free?