Hunt for lost 'Magnificent Ambersons' footage in Brazil

[Dan]

I'm curious as to who owns it. Ted Turner, I'm assuming. In that case, how much would he be willing to pay to get it back if, by some miracle, it is found?

The RKO movies ended up being owned by Warner, which is now owned by AT&T. AT&T would have to pay zero $$ to get back what is legally theirs. Now If it turned up in my basement I'd assess AT&T a hefty 79 year 'storage fee' , even though my house wasn't even around in 1942.

[jbrooks]

The RKO movies ended up being owned by Warner, which is now owned by AT&T. AT&T would have to pay zero $$ to get back what is legally theirs.

I think the answer to this question is far less clear than that. AT&T (through its subsidiary Warner Media) owns the copyright, but it is far from certain that AT&T owns any print that might be found in Brazil. The ownership of the print would likely turn on who has possession of the print and how that possession was obtained. And the question would likely be determined by Brazilian law. So, only AT&T could legally exploit the print. But I'd be surprised if anyone possessing a film print abandoned in Brazil 80 years ago could be legally compelled to hand that print over to AT&T.

And, for the record, I think the odds of finding the lost footage intact in Brazil are just slightly better than zero. I certainly support all efforts to look for the film, and I would be delighted if the efforts were successful. But the attention being given to this effort seems to imply better odds for success than the actual known facts would seem to warrant.

[Dan]

The RKO movies ended up being owned by Warner, which is now owned by AT&T. AT&T would have to pay zero $$ to get back what is legally theirs.

I think the answer to this question is far less clear than that. AT&T (through its subsidiary Warner Media) owns the copyright, but it is far from certain that AT&T owns any print that might be found in Brazil. The ownership of the print would likely turn on who has possession of the print and how that possession was obtained. And the question would likely be determined by Brazilian law. So, only AT&T could legally exploit the print. But I'd be surprised if anyone possessing a film print abandoned in Brazil 80 years ago could be legally compelled to hand that print over to AT&T.

And, for the record, I think the odds of finding the lost footage intact in Brazil are just slightly better than zero. I certainly support all efforts to look for the film, and I would be delighted if the efforts were successful. But the attention being given to this effort seems to imply better odds for success than the actual known facts would seem to warrant.

Nothing is impossible but I agree with you. In any event we'll get a nice documentary out of it.

[RayKelly]

From Entertainment Weekly:

How the Snyder Cut, Indiana Jones, and the hunt for The Magnificent Ambersons lost print connect

A director's cut is not a new concept.

From the #ReleasetheSnyderCut maelstrom that resulted in the film finally debuting on HBO Max to Francis Ford Coppola's recent retooling of The Godfather: Part III, auteurs offering up their work the way they intended it is very of the moment.

But there's one director's cut that remains something of a cinematic holy grail — Orson Welles' cut of 1942's The Magnificent Ambersons. For the precious few that saw the complete film, there was a sense that it was even greater than Welles' masterpiece Citizen Kane.

But what happened next is the stuff of Hollywood tragedy....
https://ew.com/movies/how-snyder-cut-indiana-jones-hunt-missing-print-magnificent-ambersons-connect/

[Wich2]

But the attention being given to this effort seems to imply better odds for success than the actual known facts would seem to warrant.

Nothing is impossible but I agree with you. In any event we'll get a nice documentary out of it.

I'm with you folks. And I actually like AMBERSONS more than KANE - but facts is facts.

Yes, there are outlier incidents in history: the METROPOLIS footage, Gillette's HOLMES. But - those were prints of completed films, that had seen release.

This likely will be more of a "Capone's Vault" event.

Best,
- Craig

P.S. - Unless... unless... this is a pre-planned "discovery." There is already material in hand, and this is all ballyhoo. Doubtful, though.

[Dan]

But the attention being given to this effort seems to imply better odds for success than the actual known facts would seem to warrant.

Nothing is impossible but I agree with you. In any event we'll get a nice documentary out of it.

I'm with you folks. And I actually like AMBERSONS more than KANE - but facts is facts.

Yes, there are outlier incidents in history: the METROPOLIS footage, Gillette's HOLMES. But - those were prints of completed films, that had seen release.

This likely will be more of a "Capone's Vault" event.

Best,
- Craig

P.S. - Unless... unless... this is a pre-planned "discovery." There is already material in hand, and this is all ballyhoo. Doubtful, though.

I briefly thought that too, but TCM wouldn't spend money sending people to Brazil if they already had the 'holy grail' print.

[Steve Paradis]

Yes, all true.
But after Richard III, it's difficult to say that anything is impossible.

[RayKelly]

Yes, there are outlier incidents in history: the METROPOLIS footage, Gillette's HOLMES. But - those were prints of completed films, that had seen release. This likely will be more of a "Capone's Vault" event.
P.S. - Unless... unless... this is a pre-planned "discovery." There is already material in hand, and this is all ballyhoo. Doubtful, though.

In the event they turn up empty handed, it's not the same as "Capone's Vault." Josh Grossberg will still be able to use his hunt for the lost reels as a device to tell the story of what really happened to Orson Welles and The Magnificent Ambersons in 1942. TCM — which has publicly stated it's not overly optimistic about success — gets a good documentary out of the deal.

When Netflix bought the rights to The Other Side of the Wind, they had no idea if all of the elements would be in Paris to complete it. I asked a Netflix exec if he had ever been worried. He said he felt there would at least a be a marketable documentary that could be made. (In the end, Netflix got a completed feature, a full-length documentary and a documentary short from the footage.)

[Le Chiffre]

Plus maybe Netflix will also show some interest in buying HOPPER/WELLES and anything more to come from the footage.

But the attention being given to this effort seems to imply better odds for success than the actual known facts would seem to warrant.

Nothing is impossible but I agree with you. In any event we'll get a nice documentary out of it.

P.S. - Unless... unless... this is a pre-planned "discovery." There is already material in hand, and this is all ballyhoo. Doubtful, though.

Interesting points. Why create the fanfare around the trip if there's so little chance of anything being found? Maybe they do have something - not the whole film, but at least something - and are footing the bill for the Brazil trip to see if anything more can be found. Otherwise, they're setting themselves up - fairly or unfairly - for, if not quite Capone's vault scorn, at least a bit of a sour taste for the documentary.

But then, with COVID raging in Brazil, let's just hope the trip comes off at all. For sure, it's good to see such an effort being made on behalf of a great film.

[RayKelly]

Why create the fanfare around the trip if there's so little chance of anything being found? ... Otherwise, they're setting themselves up - fairly or unfairly - for, if not quite Capone's vault scorn, at least a bit of a sour taste for the documentary.

Not everyone is as familiar with the Ambersons saga as people who regularly read Wellesnet, which is why media outlets worldwide are writing about this hunt. (I wrote about it for my day job, as well as Wellesnet, because I knew an article about the hunt for a lost film would interest casual movie fans.) TCM is already getting a lot of ink and free publicity, so I am sure they are happy with their investment
If Josh Grossberg turns up empty handed, which is very likely, the trek to Brazil is the MacGuffin that allows him to tell the story of Welles in 1942 to a general audience. If he is a good storyteller and it is a well-made documentary there should not be a sour taste... maybe a deep sadness that it is lost forever. He is traveling with a small documentary team to Brazil and staying for up to two months. Compared to other films, this is not a terribly expensive project.

[Steve Paradis]

Almost certain to be reported in Brazilian media, and word getting out that yankees with money are looking for something might turn out finders after a fee. Not like they aren't priceless.

[Le Chiffre]

I'll be ecstatic if they find something, but then I'd be satisfied if they just find out some info about what happened to the print and the footage. I hope this trip finally puts an end to the legend of the "lost Brazil print", one way or the other.

[Dan]

Meet the Team on a Quest to Find Orson Welles' Lost Original Cut of 'The Magnificent Ambersons' -
https://filmschoolrejects.com/orson-wel ... ost-print/


The Search For the Lost Print: The Making of Orson Welles’ The Magnificent Ambersons​
https://www.thelostprint.com/

[admusicam]

Shearching for....
Few month before Welles arrived in Brazil, the great conductor Toscanini came to south america in the same political gesture to conduct series of concerts and came to Rio. He returned again few month later to south america, but in Buenos Aires, teatro colon to give special concerts with a mixed orchestra with usa musicians and Buenos Aires ones. They played Beethoven 9 symphonie and Verdi Requiem (of course not realy in the mood of Welles jazz project in Brazil...)
The Toscanini concerts were broadcast and recorded. The original acetates recordings disapeared in radio archives, probably stollen by a collector. The Beethoven 9 symphony finaly surfaced years ago, and it's truely something increadible and unsuspected... but the Verdi Requiem is still lost......if Mr Grossberg want to continue his quest in Buenos Aires, after discovering Amberson print in Brazil, he could turn to a musical history Saint at the same time he become a film history God!..... And perhaps the collector who buy the 1941 Amberson print was the same who "buy" the 1941 Toscanini acetates....who know...please to see if under the reels film box there are not some great glass radio discs......!

[lionel59]

Meet the Team on a Quest to Find Orson Welles' Lost Original Cut of 'The Magnificent Ambersons' -
https://filmschoolrejects.com/orson-wel ... ost-print/


The Search For the Lost Print: The Making of Orson Welles’ The Magnificent Ambersons​
https://www.thelostprint.com/

Thanks for these links Dan. Interesting.