Welles' casting of Tim Holt

[Colmena]

In interview with Bogdanovich, Welles says "we ran all kind of six-day movies Tim had made before we were absolutely certain. It was a lucky decision." Did Welles ever identify any particular role(s) that Holt acted in that convinced him that he'd be the kind of George Minafer he was looking for? Does anyone have any suggestions, based on any of Holt's prior roles? A role where Holt was being disagreeable, as he is in Ambersons? As opposed to being a wholesome hero, as I assume he was in all those six-day Westerns.

I just re-watched Ford's Stagecoach (not a six-day movie!) which we know that Welles studied closely, but Holt's role therein is very brief, and not at all George-like.

Thanks!

[Wich2]

I think that there did not necessarily have to be an exact template in his earlier work.

Orson, like most Directors who have been Actors, knew chops when he saw them:

"If he could do all that - he could do this."

Add that to being physically in the right zone, and you're done!

Merriest,
- Craig

[atcolomb]

I wonder if Tim Holt ever made any comments later in his life about being in Ambersons?

[Le Chiffre]

I wonder if Welles ever saw FIFTH AVENUE GIRL from 1938, where Tim Holt co-stars opposite Ginger Rogers as a snotty scion of an aristocratic family in New York. The role is not unlike George Amberson Minafer, so Holt already had some experience at this kind of thing.

[Steve Paradis]

I wonder if Welles ever saw FIFTH AVENUE GIRL from 1938, where Tim Holt co-stars opposite Ginger Rogers as a snotty scion of an aristocratic family in New York. The role is not unlike George Amberson Minafer, so Holt already had some experience at this kind of thing.

"You leave my mother out of this!"
https://www.justwatch.com/us/movie/5th-ave-girl
Rather more scope than Stagecoach's shavetail.
And if we had the lost footage including his scenes, we might see what Welles saw, and got.

[Wich2]

In the Bogdanovich interviews, Orson makes these points:

They screened Holt's B's, and he thought he was a marvelous actor who he found to be a joy to work with. (Again, added to that, he was physically within type.)

As an actor who has also cast as a producer, I don't see a missing puzzle piece beyond that?

- Craig

[Le Chiffre]

One of those B westerns might have been RENEGADE RANGER (1938), where Holt co-starred with Rita Hayworth. Maybe Welles hired Holt so he could introduce him to Rita, and persuade her to appear on Welles's Lady Esther series, which she did.
https://www.filmaffinity.com/us/movieim ... =147424086
Contrast that with the clip Steve found, and one sees that Holt could fit in east or west.

[Colmena]

Thanks for the tip re Fifth Avenue Girl, M. Le Chifre.

The following from a "TCM Diary" brief survey of Holt's career underlines the continuity:

"Early on, Holt did work his way into larger parts, such as the spoiled son learning responsibility, and falling in love, when Ginger Rogers invades the family mansion in Gregory La Cava’s Fifth Avenue Girl (1939). Much of Holt’s body language is that of a young lord, legs planted apart while he attempts to show an inferior what’s what. The character of Tim Borden is stuffy, resentful, mother-ridden, with a burgeoning sexual itch for a lively young woman. Holt plays Borden dead-straight, so he’s natural and believable, but he’s a little too heavy for the surroundings (compare him with someone like Fred MacMurray or Don Ameche and you’ll see what I mean). It’s a performance that plays brilliantly, however, when he very nearly gives it again, as George Amberson Minafer in The Magnificent Ambersons."

The movie was a RKO production, and edited by Robert Wise.
And Welles liked La Cava "very, very much

PS BTW, when in college decades ago, we would often say, for no particular reason, "Nobody knows who is le Chifre.... Not even le Chifre!"

[Le Chiffre]

Thanks Colmena. RKO film? Well, that seals it. Welles must have seen it.

It's an enjoyable little movie; no Ambersons, but worth watching for the Holt/TMA connection. It has a slightly Oedipal flavor too, as Holt competes with his own father for Ginger's affections.

[Roger Ryan]

I wonder if Tim Holt ever made any comments later in his life about being in Ambersons?

Actor Jim Beaver has told an intriguing story about being seated next to Holt at a dinner event circa 1971. Being a fan of Welles, Beaver asked Holt about the "George Minafer" role to which Holt noted that a number of years earlier he had been golfing with a prominent Oklahoman who, after the game, invited Holt back to his home. Upon entering the house, Holt was struck by déjà vu as the layout of the home was nearly identical to the Amberson mansion set. The homeowner then told him that Welles had been a guest at the home around 1939 or 1940 while on a lecture tour. A year or two after that, the homeowner claimed that Welles arranged for a couple of set designers from RKO to visit the home and take extensive notes and measurements in preparation for Ambersons.

The house Holt visited was the Overholser Mansion, just north of downtown Oklahoma City. The similarity to the Amberson mansion is fairly striking...

https://www.overholsermansion.org/

[Le Chiffre]

I'd like to see that sometime.

Another place Welles may have visited, since it's only 40 miles from Kenosha, would be the Pabst Mansion in Milwaukee. This staircase looks pretty similar to the one in Ambersons:
https://www.google.com/search?q=pabst+m ... lFwivPu55M

[Wich2]

"The House That Made Milwaukee Famous"!

Merriest,
- Craig

[Steve Paradis]

More Tarkington than Welles, but locals say this was the house Tarkington wrote about.
Owned at one time by the Traction King!
https://historicindianapolis.com/preser ... re-street/

Read of its fate and try not to think Riff raff!