Six versions of CHIMES AT MIDNIGHT?!

[Le Chiffre]

FROM WELLESNET FACEBOOK:

A restored version of CHIMES AT MIDNIGHT was screened at the recent Venice Film Festival, and apparently there were many variant versions of the film Welles prepared between 1965 and 1966, which is hardly surprising for a Welles movie, but
I had never heard of six versions. That may also account for some sources giving FALSTAFF a running time of 119 minutes, although all the DVD versions I have seen run 115 minutes.Now if only one of variant versions can get a US release on blu ray!

Immediately before the screening of CHIMES AT MIDNIGHT in Venice, Luciano Berriatúa the Spanish historian screened his documentary "The (6) versions of 'Chimes at Midnight' by Orson Welles," which explained the process of shooting FALSTAFF and the restoration work which has been carried out.

http://www.labiennale.org/en/cinema/fes ... iones.html

[atcolomb]

Criterion did release the many versions of "Mr. Arkadin" on dvd a few years ago so i do hope they can release Chimes one day soon.

[LostOverThere]

This is extremely interesting! Considering this kind of thing screened at Venice, and Mr. Bongo managed to release a DVD of Falstaff itself, could the rights issues be clearing up? Does anyone know where the film stands at the moment, legally speaking?

[Le Chiffre]

I guess I'm still unclear as to whether the other five versions still exist. I'm hoping and assuming they do. I know there was a prologue cut from the film, showing the murder of Richard II. Hopefully that's in one of the other versions.

[Roger Ryan]

The statement that all six versions of the film played in theaters in '65 or '66 suggests that the alterations were something more than just the stages between initial rough cut and final edit. I assume the "Spanish" edit is one of them, but what is the difference apart from a potentially Spanish-language soundtrack?

[Le Chiffre]

The Spanish ARKADIN has quite a few different takes of shots from the English language versions, so it makes sense that Welles might do a similar thing for CHIMES. This statement on the linked page suggests as much:

We have...made 35mm prints of the English version and of the Spanish version that we are now presenting in Venice. For the latter we worked with the objective that it should be a faithful reproduction of the copy screened in Madrid in 1966.

[Roger Ryan]

That's true, a version of ARKADIN was tailored to the Spanish market to the extent that both Katina Paxinou and Suzanne Flon were replaced by Spanish actresses for their roles, I believe. Given that ARKADIN was episodic with distinctly international casting, this makes sense, but I didn't think that Welles attempted this for any of his other films. CHIMES seems too "of-a-piece" and complicated to have any supporting roles played by different actors for the Spanish market. I'd be curious about the reasoning behind using different takes for different regions. Silent films would often have multiple cameras shoot the same scene or do additional takes for foreign markets simply to have two or more negatives with which to make prints (one could be sent to overseas while another would remain at home). Did Welles think this would be an advantage in the 60s? I suspect the differences between the versions involves re-editing the same footage and that Welles continued to tinker with the film after its initial release, perhaps in a similar manner to what he did with OTHELLO.

[Le Chiffre]

Yes, that would be my guess too, although in the case of OTHELLO, he wound up making the film worse, IMO. I don’t want to speculate too much, but the Shrewsbury battle scene in CHIMES might be the most likely candidate to have more then one version. In fact, in Peter Tonguette’s book ORSON WELLES REMEMBERED, there is an interview with the editor of Chimes – name escapes me - who claims Welles ruined the battle scene by editing and editing it until it was hash! That’s not the way we see that classic sequence today, of course, but it would be interesting to see a less frenetically edited version of it, if it exists.

As far as ARKADIN goes, there are a few alternate takes aside from the scenes reshot with different actors, the most notable being the climactic scene where Van Stratton discovers that Milly has been murdered. The evil look that Arkadin gazes into the camera with is different in the Spanish version.

[mido505]

I am afraid that the battle sequence in CHIMES is probably the least likely to exist in different versions. Frederick Muller, the editor, states in ORSON WELLES REMEMBERED that he sent Welles away during the editing of that sequence to that he could work undisturbed. Welles had shot a tremendous amount of footage; Welles and Muller watched the dailies together, discussed what Welles wanted, and then Muller worked alone. Quote from Muller: "He never touched that sequence again."

It was the sequence where they arrived at Hotspur's castle with the trumpets on the towers that Welles edited to death. Muller got into an argument with Welles because he felt the sequence went by too quickly for the audience to understand what was going on. In Muller's view, Welles, knowing what was going to happen, and bored with the exposition, would get ahead of his audience, leaving them no time to absorb what was happening.

[Le Chiffre]

Oops, another memory lapse; it has been several years since I read that book. Thanks for the correct info, Mido. Maybe the Hotspur's Castle scene is the one with different versions. I'm not particular; more Welles of any kind is always welcome.

[mido505]

You may have lapsed on the details, but the gist of your point is correct. And Muller is not the only editor who has claimed that Welles got ahead of his audience in the editing room, rushing sequences of which he had foreknowledge because he was afraid of boring the audience, forgetting that they needed more time to absorb the detail and mechanics of the scene. Here my memory is hazy, but I believe at least one of the many cutters on Don Quixote made the same observation, and some of the OSOTW footage available looks decidedly "fussy" to me.

I'm very interested in the so-called six versions of CHIMES - this is the first I've heard of such a thing. However, a while back I corresponded with Robert Monell, who is writing a book on Jess Franco, Welles's assistant director on CHIMES. Monell has occasionally posted here at Wellesnet, and has interviewed Franco extensively. According to Franco, it was he who went behind Welles's back and turned over CHIMES to the producer when Welles refused to deliver, because he wanted to keep editing. Welles was reportedly so angry with Franco that he choked him. So perhaps Welles went back and did some more editing after initial showings, or prior to releases in different countries. I'll have to look and see if I have those old emails; if I do, I'll post the relevant portions.

Muller also affirms that both THE TRIAL and CHIMES were never really "finished" by Welles; he simply stopped editing when they were pulled by irate producers.

I'll say this for Welles; just when you think you know most of the important bits about his life and work, something astonishingly interesting pops up.

[Le Chiffre]

Ain’t that the truth, Mido. That Franco Chimes story reminds of the one about Sam Peckinpah, who kept tinkering obsessively with CROSS OF IRON until he had signed a contract to make another film. That’s the only way they could get CROSS away from him, he was so addicted to playing with film. I get the impression from Leaming’s book that that was basically what DON QUIXOTE was for: to give Welles something to do when he couldn’t get another gig. Jonathon Rosenbaum has already stated that he thinks there may (or might have been) several DON QUIXOTES. ORSON WELLES AT WORK also recounts how MR. ARKADIN was taken out of Welles’s hands by producer Louis Dolivet when Welles’s inability to finish the editing caused them to miss several important festivals where the film was supposed to debut. Thus, there is no definitive ARKADIN. I always thought there was only one definitive CHIMES, but I'm not so sure now.

[mido505]

Welles once wept while watching a mutilated AMBERSONS, and was scathing about all the release versions of ARKADIN; as far as he was concerned, those films had been butchered past all consideration. Regarding TOE, MACBETH, LADY FROM SHANGHAI and THE STRANGER Welles was more sanguine, but left little doubt that his preferred final cuts were different from what was eventually released.

On the other hand, KANE was all Welles; OTHELLO, despite existing a a couple of variants, was specifically placed by its director in the plus column. Welles was also extremely proud of the release version of THE TRIAL, more so, it seems, than were many of his acolytes, including Truffault, Bazin, and Bogdanovich.

CHIMES was Welles's favorite of all his films, the one that he felt best approximated his vision.

Of this there is no doubt; he stated it over and over again, in interview after interview.

This leads me to believe that, while CHIMES may exist in six variants, the differences don't amount to a hill of beans, as it were.

There is a difference between having one's film taken away and reedited by hacks, and being forced to stop tinkering so that the producer can release it and get some of his money back.

The release version of CHIMES was rough, as were the release versions of OTHELLO and THE TRIAL, but Welles always said movies should be rough. For Welles, clarity of vision was not necessarily perfection of technique. One of the great paradoxes of Welles's career is that only a man with an absolute mastery of the mechanics of filmmaking, could have produced the sloppy masterpieces that are THE TRIAL, CHIMES, and F FOR FAKE.

Kubrick, another master and perfectionist, often reedited his films after initial release, yet no one could sanely claim that either variant was not the director's full intention at the time. Being able to do so was a sign of Kubrick's power, not his weakness. We are so used to seeing Welles as a victim, often for very good reason, that sometimes we miss when he wasn't.

For a true artist, nothing is ever right; there is always something you could have done differently, more vividly, more concisely, better. But eventually you have to stop. Sometimes you have to be told to stop. Some times you have to be forced.

Welles, of course, loved to break all the rules. He broke this rule, too. He started filming DON QUIXOTE, so that he had something that was all his. So that no one could tell him, force him, to stop.

I've emailed Robert Monell, asking him to weigh in on this topic, to help clarify what happened with Welles, CHIMES, Franco, and Saltzman. I hope he responds. But, while interesting, I don't think we are in for any earth shattering revelations. I doubt that any of the so-called six versions of CHIMES are substantially different from the film that we all know and love.

Because Welles loved CHIMES too. He wouldn't have loved it if it wasn't his.

[Roger Ryan]

There are plenty of things Welles did as a director/editor that I disagree with and over-editing in his later independent work would be one of these. However, I agree with "mido505" that the films Welles designated as his best are superb films and are filled with long takes that are completely free of fussy editing. With each passing year, even Welles' most frenetically-cut scenes seem more in tune with modern cinema. Of course, as I become more familiar with the films I have less trouble with the pacing, so perhaps it's true that Welles wanted the work to be viewed multiple times before it could be fully appreciated. This would have been difficult during the decades his work was originally released, but with home video we can watch his films as often as we'd like. Yet another way he was ahead of his time?

[ToddBaesen]

Welles clearly edited and totally directed the battle scenes of CHIMES, and what people say after he is gone is almost pathetic. Just like Saul Bass directed the shower scene in PSYCHO. Simply incredible what people will believe!

Welles films have one of the most unique signatures of any director in the history of the cinema, in terms of his complex editing style, so to claim Welles left the editing to somebody else on CHIMES is simply absurd.