The Unknown Orson Welles in NY - rare Welles footage shown at Film Forum

[Glenn Anders]

I have been enjoying all the commentary on the NYC and LA showings, and I particularly enjoyed colwood's descriptions of THE ORSON WELLES SKETCHBOOKS. Lucky enough to be at an Army base near London in 1954 and 1955, I was able to see the original, masterful cut of M. ARKADIN, and to see Welles' Moby Dick Rehearsed at the Duke of York's Theater. Lucky enough, too, in having a beautiful blonde girlfriend, a graduate of Teatro Conti, in London.

Whenever I came down to London on a weekend pass, I suppose it would have been early in 1955, she would tell me excitedly of the latest Sketchbook episode she had seen. She said that her theatrical and media friends thought the ground that Welles was breaking in the Sketchbooks should reveal for the boffins of the BBC a whole new area to develop. She hoped that they would add the Sketchbooks to its regular schedule, but I guess it didn't happen.

As for Jaime M. Christley's intelligence about Oja Kodar's desire to have OSOTW given the most full restoration possible, I'm with her completely. After all these years and struggle, why settle for a whomped together version that critics would damn with faint praise? Why give all those people who seem to revel in every failing Welles ever displayed an additional reason to say, oh, he was not so hot, just a flash in the pan? By all means, raise four, five, six million dollars, hire Murch, Bogdanovich, Graver, to make it as close to masterpiece as possible. We can already see clips of the film in several documentaries. By all accounts, the film is almost complete;it does not need to be an appreciation of a film that never had a chance to come together -- like THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND.

Six million is nothing today. Let's get it done;let's get it done now.

Glenn

[Kubed]

Will there be another opportunity for New Yorkers to see this again?

[Jaime N. Christley]

As for Jaime M. Christley's intelligence about Oja Kodar's desire to have OSOTW given the most full restoration possible, I'm with her completely. After all these years and struggle, why settle for a whomped together version that critics would damn with faint praise? Why give all those people who seem to revel in every failing Welles ever displayed an additional reason to say, oh, he was not so hot, just a flash in the pan? By all means, raise four, five, six million dollars, hire Murch, Bogdanovich, Graver, to make it as close to masterpiece as possible. We can already see clips of the film in several documentaries. By all accounts, the film is almost complete;it does not need to be an appreciation of a film that never had a chance to come together -- like THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND.

Fine sentiments, but I wasn't totally accurate in relating what Stefan told me. As he mentioned it again, the situation is basically this:

Anyone who is approached to put money into an Unfinished Welles film, if that amount is, say, in the millions, they expect to see their money returned, preferably at a profit. This includes Oja. Love is nice, but it isn't money.

Six million is not nothing. If it was, we wouldn't be lamenting the absence of this presumably great movie.

p.s. I love the OSOTW scenes partly because they've changed my way of thinking and seeing Welles' films - the fact that they scarcely resemble classical and recognizable Welles is a credit, not a debit, in my view.

[colwood]

One of the things I remember Stefan touching on was that one of the films was in (near) complete condition and is being held in a vault in Paris but the vault company won't release it without authorization from the production company. Thing is the production company went out of business in the late 70's/ early 80's. Jaime, do you remember which film he was talking about. I want to say The Deep, but he may have been talking about Wind.

[colwood]

Kubed, unfortunately I don't think there will be another opportunity for anyone to see this material in NY anytime soon. In fact, I believe Stefan said that the material was heading back to Munich this week so I'm not sure that anyone else in NY, LA, or elsewhere will get to see it either.

[jbrooks]

Colwood,

To answer your question, Stefan was speaking about some newly discovered reels of negatives from The Deep. He said that this new material was 6 reels (or did he say 8?), and that he wasn't sure what it was. He said it might be negative for some of the material covered in the workprint or it might be some of the underwater material Welles shot. He said that the lab would not release the material because its records indicated that it could not be released without authorization from some Yugoslavian (?) production company. Stefan said that this was strange since he did not believe the company was involved with The Deep at all and the company had gone out of business years ago. Stefan indicated that he was going to Yugoslavia (?) in the near future to meet with some representative of this defunct production company to try to get authorization for the lab to release the material.

Stefan also said that he had halted work on the restoration of The Deep pending review of these new reels of negative. He said that he had been trying to restore the workprint material as best as possible for completion in 2005 but that that time frame would now be pushed back. (He explained that the original negatives for The Deep are lost. He recounted how there was some issue involving customs issues with the material (in France?). And he said that indications were that the material probably was discarded.)

[colwood]

jbrooks, thanks a million.

[elwyn57]

The quote at the end of the film " this is for you ,Bill " is more likely to have been for Bill Rogers , the husband of Mrs Rogers ( whose christian name ,if I recall correctly , was Jane .) Bill Cronshaw was was indeed OW's London agent , but was not dying of aids at that time ( 1984). Nor was he married to Mrs Rogers .
The confusion might be that Cronshaw's long time partner , Ray Cook, an eminent Musical Director in London's West End was indeed seriously ill with aids at that time . Ray had just returned from scoring the film" Careful , he might hear you " in Australia and died in London in 1985 .
Bill Cronshaw died from aids some 10 years later in Sydney.
Bill and Ray owned a section of Coates Castle in West Sussex , and the Rogers also had a section of the same property . Bill Rogers was some years older than his wife , and had been a chief construction engineer to the famous architect Walter Burley Griffin in Australia in the 1920/30s.
I believe he died of natural causes in 1984 , and he would have been well into his nineties . OW was an occasional visitor to Coates Castle and would have known Bill Rogers quite well .
Of course, it is also possible that it was directed to Bill Cronshaw because of Ray Cook's condition, but I think it more likely to be directed to Bill Rogers.
Elwyn57

[ToddBaesen]

Thanks for that clarification, Elwyn.

Just so as not to confuse people, the correction refers to the post about Welles's LINDBERG SHORT posted much earlier on this thread, which stated:

Welles sent this filmed letter to his longtime London manager Bill Cronshaw in 1984, who was dying of aids at the time. Cronshaw was also married to Welles longtime London secretary, Mrs. Rogers.

In LA, Stefan (Drossler) revealed that Orson's line "Don't Cry Baby" was directed at his cat, apparently sitting beside him, just off screen.

A very sad piece, not only because Welles was sending it to his dying friend, but also because Welles himself looks very frail and is obviously not in the best of health.

Below is the prologue, which I think, quite appropriately, can also be applied to Welles:

ORSON WELLES: There are never many, never enough of them, but there are men born into the world with a gaze fixed on the widest possible horizon. Men who can see without strain beyond the most distant horizon into that unconquered country we call the future. Here are some words by one such man, which I'd like to dedicate to another such man.

This is for you, Bill...

[elwyn57]

Thanks Todd , I hadn't heard the prologue, or seen the film : the excerpt you quote is very beautiful.
I realize the question was raised some years ago but I came across this website quite by accident , and because I had the good fortune to know both Bills , I felt compelled to correct the record .
It was not meant to be anything more than that.
I did have the good fortune to meet Mr Welles ; not at Coates Castle , but in the private garden behind Bill Cronshaw's London residence at Randolph Crescent , Maida Vale. This was around 1979/80 . I'm afraid I was a little too stunned to engage in any meaningful conversation , but one of the things I loved about Bill was that his demeanour didn't change with who ever he was talking to . Bill Rogers was also wonderful , had many anecdotes to share , and was a wise and generous man .

Elwyn

[Jay]

I would be interested to know why many on this board are so enthusiastic about TOSOTW and what it is that I may be missing.

I can only speak for myself (especially since I'm a newbie on the board), but I think that, unlike other unfinished projects such as The Deep, TOSOTW has been hailed by those who have worked on putting it together after Welles' death (ex. Bogdanovich) and have seen a close-to-completed version as one of Welles' finest works. Not only that, but its legend only grows the longer and more convoluted the efforts become to finally release it. In addition, it's basically the one remaining unreleased Welles film that has a shot at being restored and released in a "completed" form.