The Chinese Theater Sequence in THE LADY FROM SHANGHAI.

[Glenn Anders]

Several weeks ago, when Larry French and I attended a showing of THE LADY FROM SHANGHAI, which Chris Feder introduced here at the Rafael Film Center. I was struck more than I ever had been before by the long sequence in which Mike O'Hara hides in a theater after escaping from his murder trial. There is possibly a minute (a long time on the screen) of untranslated Chinese dialogue from stage, and various reactions of Chinese speakers in the audience, inter-cut with Mike's desperate planning with Elsa Bannister to avoid the police, aided by her servants. One or two of these episodes are used for comic relief, as when a young woman abandons her conversation in Chinese to say something like, "You aint kidding." But most of the dialogue by the spectators seems to be serious, and the play, the action in the play, and the exchanges by the actors appear to provide counterpoint to the main action.

Neither Larry nor Todd Baesen was able to provide much enlightenment on the sequence's meaning, and I've been unable to find a scholarly exegesis of the play or its meaning in the film, and so, my substantive question is this:

Can anyone with a knowledge or the resources to examine Chinese Classical Theater translate the dialogue and explain the sequence's purpose in THE LADY FROM SHANGHAI? Is there a significant contrast between Mandarin and Cantonese in the dramatic context of the play, the reactions of the players and the audience, and the overall plot of THE LADY FROM SHANGHAI?

There, I should think, would be the basis for an important article in Chinese-American or Wellesian Studies.

Not only I but Inquiring Baesens would like to know, no doubt.

Glenn

[Roger Ryan]

Sorry, I don't know Chinese, Cantonese, etc. but I can add that the scene played a bit longer in Welles' original edit; the additional footage explained some of the motivation behind Elsa's actions as well as some of the twists and turns of the plot. It was my understanding that Welles intended the exchange between Elsa and Michael (or perhaps the plot of the film in general) to be "mirrored" to some extent by the action on the Chinese theatre stage.

One correction, Glenn: The "you ain't kidding" joke actually comes during the trial sequence where two Asian spectators are discussing the case.

[Christopher]

If only some of our intelligent Wellesnetters had been around when Harry Cohn exclaimed, after seeing the rough cut of THE LADY FROM SHANGHAI, "I'll give a thousand dollars to anyone who can explain the story to me!"

[Glenn Anders]

Christopher: I'm with Harry Cohn on this one, though he ordered the re-cut, re-shot 87 minute version of THE LADY FROM SHANGHAI that he's complaining about. Had he followed the wishes and memos of Orson Welles, he might not have had that thousand dollar wager problem (causing his underlings to quake); hell, not a $400,000 over-budget problem. But one part of the puzzlement which remains is, indeed, the Chinese Mandarin Theater sequence. Welles, at least, is not likely to have thrown it in just for local color. I understand, Roger, that the actions and dialogue of the players are supposed to mirror the conversation, possibly the situation, of Elsa and Michael. [Much the way that other great student of Welles -- Frances Ford Coppola -- uses Cavalliera Rusticana to comment on the skullduggery at the climax of GODFATHER III.] The question in this film is: Why? and How?

Lest other resident geniuses in Asian cultures here dismiss our groundling ignorance, Christopher, the question is not so simple as one might think.

Remember that Chinese immigration to the United States had been restricted from 1882 to the end of 1943 in a harshly racist and exploitive fashion, and those Chinese allowed into the country, or allowed to remain here, were largely men, useful to tycoons in the Western States for labor. In the period immediately after World War II, when THE LADY FROM SHANGHAI was made, interracial marriage was forbidden in most of the 48 States (and would be for a number of years), and so, there was a great flux of men returning to China, finding brides, and returning here. Most of this population, new and old, came from the coastal areas south of Manchuria, and they spoke Cantonese.

Many of them would not have understood Mandarin.

As someone suggests, Welles would have been keenly aware of these racial developments on the West Coast, not simply in the matter of racial discrimination, but in cultural, artistic, social, legal, and broadly democratic applications, as he had been earlier in the "His Honor the Mayor" radio drama or "The Sleepy Lagoon Case" among Latinos, and the Isaac Woodward Case among Black Americans, which had just cost him his American Radio career.

What was Welles' purpose in juxtaposing the cynically satirical murder trial sequence with this ancient (?) Mandarin (?) dramatic transplantation, spoken in a language that many in the audience besides Elsa and Michael might not understand?

That's my query. If someone could direct us to a book which would explain that enigma, Christopher, Roger and other Wellesnetters (in addition to addle-brained Glenn Anders) would no doubt be grateful.

G. A.

[mido505]

Glenn:

I plan to address the Chinese Theater sequence in greater detail later, but I do wish to clarify, of not correct, one of your observations. Mandarin is the lingua franca, as it were, of China. It is the official language of the People's Republic of China and Taiwan, as well as of Hong Kong, Malaysia, Macau, and Singapore. There are numerous regional dialects or sublanguages in China, most of which are mutually unintelligible. Cantonese is the sublanguage of the Guangdong province, and is spoken in Hong Kong, Macau, and in a majority of the overseas Chinese population up until recently, as the first waves of immigration out of China came from this region. Mandarin, which originated in the area around Beijing, was imposed on the rest of China's population by the conquering Han and used to unify country and culture, much like Latin in Europe during Roman dominance. All (or at least most) Chinese grow up learning both Mandarin and their local language. For instance, I work with a number of Chinese from Fujian province; another coworker is from Beijing; a third is Malaysian, and my boss is Taiwanese. They all speak to each other in Mandarin (as well as English, obviously).

I can't say I am particularly knowledgeable about Chinese Opera, and I do not recall in what language the opera in LFS is performed. But I seriously doubt that the Chinese audience members would have difficulty in understanding the production. Either the opera is performed in Cantonese or Mandarin, in which case it would be perfectly intelligible; or it is performed in Classical Chinese, in which case the experience would be akin to our witnessing a performance of a Shakespeare play. Maybe that was Welles's point...

[Glenn Anders]

Thanks, mido505: I was thinking of the cultural shift which came over San Francisco after I arrived here in 1959. At that time, there were virtually no Chinese restaurants except Cantonese ones, which as you will know, stress noodles, vegetables, broth, generally bland spices, etc. It was another ten years before large numbers of Northern Chinese cuisines virtually took over the City.

I thank you for correcting me. It's that kind of ignorance on my part that I was trying to clear up. Come to think of it, I had a friend here, a brilliant language teacher. He made a trek to China and Japan, and before he left, having taught Cantonese as part of his curriculum much of his professional life, he had to take courses in Mandarin. Perhaps, that's where I got the idea.

Anyway, I look forward, as I'm sure a number of us do, to your further exploration of the Mandarin Theater sequence. The correlation with Shakespearean or Classical Drama seems apt.

Glenn

[Glenn Anders]

"GIBBERISH SPOKEN HERE?"

Come on, kiddo, wouldn't it be simpler just to give us the translation, no matter how outlandish?

Otherwise, less erudite folk than yourself might begin conclude that you are wasting their time here.

You wouldn't do that, would you?

We're just a blank slate awaiting your wisdom.

[tonyw]

I believe the Chinese is a Cantonese dialect in this scene. Beijing Opera is an art form of its own and was popular in the Cantonese speaking area of Hong Kong and Guangzhou Province. Basically, I think Welles was very serious in this scene as well as revealing his appreciation for other art forms. Could the highly ritualized nature of Beijing Opera also represent a comment on the performance strategy used by the Lady from Shanghai herself as well as Michael's entrapment in the role she ordained for him in the very beginning of the film? I think both Brecht and Eisenstein admired Beijing Opera and its citation here may play a significant role in the narrative at this point

[Glenn Anders]

Your answer, tonyw, all in all, is the most succinct and informative I've had to my original question.

Can anyone else be equally so succinct and informative in expanding upon your answers.

Some here have a very large Mulberry Tree around which they run endlessly!

Thank you, tonyw. Be careful now, getting out of here. I don't want you caught in a "hate speech" dragnet!

Glenn

[Glenn Anders]

Poster: Get off it.

Don't you see: You are not making a bit of sense.

Always stand in front of a mirror, and recite what you've written. If you do, you will either be embarrassed, or you will burst out laughing at yourself, thus , finding your sense of humor.

Glenn

[mido505]

Glenn:

Are you out and about lately? If so, here is a homework assignment for you. The Chinese theater sequence in LFS was filmed in the old Mandarin Theater in SF's Chinatown. It was converted to retail use in 1986, and is now know as the Sun Sing Center. Why don't you take the family out for Dim Sum in the next couple of weeks, take a walk around the Center, and give us your observations. They would be much appreciated.

[nextren]

I can't wait until Keats's book comes out. Until then, I guess we'll have to put up with a lot of thunderous huffing from him. The book does sound intriguing.

As for the Chinese theatre sequence, Callow says Welles wrote that he spent time in China with a Chinese theatre group during his adolescence and learned a good deal about this art then. (This was when he was wandering the world with his father, who was dying of drink and possibly of despair.) In the script Elsa relates what's going on during the show and her and Michael's situation or relationship. This was cut, but it would show that Welles was wanting to communicate to his audience what is going on during the play, or to seem so; an effort to bring the popular American audience on board with the Chinese theatre, however briefly or superficially; Welles's impulse to teach, or to make various racial groups familiar with each other (IAT, the case that got him fired by ABC from radio, etc.) during this period was never far beneath his surface. No specifically political content is conveyed, I think, by the Chinese theatre sequence, just a generally political feeling of different races' cultures being presented in a respectful way (still not a given in American movies or culture at that time). Callow also relates the sequence to Brecht's theories of theatrical alienation. Seen this way, the sequence is not only of a piece with the deliberately disorienting funhouse and hall of mirrors sequences that directly follow it (and remember it is Chinese individuals connected with that Chinese theatre who run the funhouse), but also serves as a detached commentary (in the script anyway) on Elsa and Michael's relationship; a "Mother Courage" precis of it, with a Mandarin flavor, if you will. Why have a precis in that manner? To shock the audience into a state where they can coolly or intellectually consider it, partly an effort at (very necessary) exposition and partly an effort at providing an optimal context for such consideration by putting everything in a strange light (per the Brechtian theory). We are seeing only the barest and most mutilated skeleton of what Welles intended and that was very probably present in his original cut, which was an hour longer than the release cut. If I keep editing this post to add things, no one will buy my or any other book (according to our friend), so I'll stop.

[mido505]

http://www.filminamerica.com/Movies/The ... mShanghai/

[Christopher]

Keats,

I am sorry to have to say this, but I am getting so bored with your posts, your self-importance and your attacks on Glenn. I wish you would take up less space on the message board or confine your posts to instances where you have something of value to contribute, such as fresh information about the topic under discussion, or an interesting insight, opinion or point of view.

[Glenn Anders]

Thank you, mido505: In my salad days, I used to go to the Sun Sing Theater, when it was a movie house. I had a pal, the language teacher I may have mentioned, who loved Kung-Fu pictures, which right after his first divorce, were becoming the thing to do. [Unfortunately, he is no longer nearby.] The neighborhood today is considerably changed. Mr. French often takes visiting firemen and women for tours that include the old site. I am absorbed in several serious matters, one of which just came up, but I'll try to post you a description when I have the time and money for a lunch down there. [Don't hold your breath too long; I can't. But I shall do it, I promise.]

And thank you, Nextren, for along with mido505 and tonyw: You have provided some of the most practical and useful suggestions to answer my simple, honest question.

[As for that other guy's advice, I do know a beautiful, intelligent woman from Taipei (thus, speaks Mandarin), who lived with our family for a while. She married well, became a millionairess, and runs a business near Sacramento. I see her only occasionally. Otherwise, have you ever thought of trying to ask an Asian acquaintance to sit down for an hour and a half in order to establish context to interpret five minutes of Mandarin or Cantonese, you don't know which, in a western motion picture? Or as our expert on the Far East urges, just ask the first three or four Asians you run into on the street to come home with you and watch a bad DVD copy of the 87 minute LADY FROM SHANGHAI because you want them to translate some Chinese dialogue? "Ouch! I'm telling you, officer, that I made a perfectly innocent request. Any Literary Sociologist would have done the same thing!"]

Now, my Literary Sociologist friend, I don't know if you have read over your entire dossier of correspondence with people who might be Christopher Welles, but I think you may already have been p**ss*ng off Orson Welles' daughter, for some period: match point and set. That is to say, if your judgment does not lead you to suspect that the person who uses the avatar, Christopher, is REALLY NOT a daughter of Orson Welles. If I were you, I wouldn't depend upon Larry French's kindness too far. Imagine you are, Larry, and ask yourself the question, please: "Would I rather have Orson Welles' daughter at Wellesnet, or this other guy -- the source of startling articles like the one posted above, "Ripped from the Headlines" of the daily Chinese press? I think the answer is obvious. You are just the kind of person who drove Rick Schmidlin from this site for a long time. Shh-h-h, pal. I sense that we are both expendable, in that context. The shadowy figure who calls herself "Christopher" has it right on. Our exchanges, after a short while, may have "bored" far more ordinary persons than Christopher!

And finally, thank you, Christopher. No more than Larry can I figure why you find me useful here, but I appreciate it. Please don't try to review all this guff! You have done some REAL writing, "Darling Girl," and you have much more to do.

Glenn