Welles and the Censored 11 Looney Tunes...

[Kevin Loy]

...or, rather, one of them in particular.

I recently managed to track down a copy of the "Censored 11" Looney Tunes (for those of you who haven't heard of these, there's a brief bit of information at http://looney.goldenagecartoons.com/ltcuts/ltcuts11.html ), basically out of interest of seeing "Coal Black" [which is a Snow White 'parody'], which has gone on to some sort of minor revisionist history as being a Bob Clampett masterpiece despite the stereotypes inherent in the film. That having been said, I'm generally not a huge fan of the Bob Clampett Looney Tunes (I think that Clampett could be visually impressive at times, but I just don't find most of his work to be particularly hilarious), or the Tex Avery ones that preceded them, and "Coal Black" wasn't an exception for me, though there was one bit in particular that I thought was incredibly hilarious, when "Prince Chawmin" remarks that the kiss he'll use to awaken "So White" [which was actually the original title, before Leon Schlesinger objected and changed it] will be his special "Rosebud" (complete with a deliberate cut with a close-up of his mouth saying Rosebud, of course). What struck me as more hilarious than the reference itself, however, was the thought about the rumor that "Rosebud" was Hearst's pet name for Marion Davies', well...

Which makes me wonder, of course, if they knew this when they inserted that reference and completely intended for it to have scatological overtones (which wouldn't be the first time, of course, and certainly not the last time). Does anybody know just how widespread the "Rosebud" rumor might have been back in the early 40s? Or, is it possible that some of the guys from Termite Terrace knew Welles or Mank? (Actually, Clampett apparently referenced Citizen Kane in two other films before "Coal Black")

[Tony]

Kevin: "Rosebud" has been alleged to refer to Davies' .... orifice to do with reproduction, etc., while 'scatalogical' refers to... the other one situated nearby.:;):

[dkovacev]

As a fan of both Welles and Clampett, I wondered about this too. Bob Clampett was notorious for his habit of inserting dirty jokes in his cartoons. Many of them were cut before the general release, or remained only on storyboards, yet some of them survived the Hays office censorship. So, the reference to Rosebud might be intentional, if the rumor about its "true" meaning was known at the time. I don't know if Clampett knew Welles personally... can't recall him ever mentioning Welles in interviews, but he must have been a Welles fan. Beside being the only cartoon director of the classic era to include several Welles references and allusions, his '40s cartoons were filled with almost Wellesian visual tricks and unusual editing.
There's another curious Clampett-Welles connection: the 1975 documentary and cartoon compilation "Bugs Bunny Superstar" hosted and produced by Clampett. It was narrated by Orson Welles, and among the people who worked on this film were Gary Graver and Larry Jackson (production manager on "Other Side of the Wind"). Interesting coincidence...

[Kevin Loy]

Kevin: "Rosebud" has been alleged to refer to Davies' .... orifice to do with reproduction, etc., while 'scatalogical' refers to... the other one situated nearby.:;):

'scatological', despite its reference to the word 'scat', can also refer to obscenity in general, and that was the way that I meant it...though it was a poor word choice, and 'smutty' would have been better.

Anyway, I e-mailed Jerry Beck (who, along with Whoppi Goldberg, is the most vocal champion of "Coal Black") to ask him if he thought there was any correlation between the 'rosebud' rumor and Clampett's placement choice of that reference, and he said that there was no doubt that it was his intention. That doesn't specify, of course, whether he was aware of the 'rosebud' rumor itself, but if not, his mind was certainly in the same...umm...area that Hearst's was.

[Le Chiffre]

I'd like to get ahold of those censored Loony Tunes myself. I guess I have an unhealthy curiosity about anything that's been censored. I can still remember that logo: 'A Bob Clamm-pett caar-toooo-ooooon!'

Recently finished Dan Brown's THE DAVINCI CODE. It's highly entertaining, and has alot of very interesting info and theories in it, although their plausability is sometimes pretty questionable. Sorry if this goes too far off on a tangent, but it seems Hearst was probably not the first person to use 'Rosebud' as a nickname for female genetalia. Here are some excerpts from an interesting webpage on the book:

"The pentacle (five pointed star) is referred to many times in this book. It is traditionally a pagan symbol. It most commonly represents the female half of all things. The pentacle is a symbol of the sacred feminine, Venus, the divine goddess. It has strong links to Mother Earth and nature. Venus's pentacle was an icon for beauty, perfection and sexual love.

'The rose is used as an indicator on many different objects in the book. Romans hung the rose over meetings to indicate that the meeting was to be kept a secret. The rose has five petals and has pentagram symmetry and thus indicates womanhood. Also the rosebud resembles the female genitals. The rose is related to the idea of true direction and is used today in the compass rose. With the rose's meaning of womanhood, guidance and secrecy it becomes an icon for the Holy Grail. In addition, rose is an anagram for the Greek god of love, Eros.

'Disney movies contain many allusions to pagan ideals, including that of the goddess. Incarceration of the sacred feminine is the symbolic theme in Cinderella, Snow White, and Sleeping Beauty. In Sleeping Beauty the princess Aurora's code name is Rose.'

Disney was also accused of racism and anti-semitism. There's SONG OF THE SOUTH of course, and the black servant that was taken out of the original version of FANTASIA. Also, there are said to be fornicating demons in the NIGHT ON BALD MOUNTAIN segment, that can be found with pause-frame.

[Kevin Loy]

I'd like to get ahold of those censored Loony Tunes myself. I guess I have an unhealthy curiosity about anything that's been censored. I can still remember that logo: 'A Bob Clamm-pett caar-toooo-ooooon!'

Well, if you're curious, there's a torrent floating around online that has all of them. I will forewarn you that the video quality is pretty rough, and at least with the copy that I have, they were bookended with about 10 minutes of useless video.

Hmm...I'll have to dig up my copy of Fantasia to see if I can find those fornicating demons...The rose/pagan 'tangent' was interesting, of course, though I was referring more to the fact that, according to the rumor, the usage of 'Rosebud' in Kane was in direct relation to Hearst's usage.

[Le Chiffre]

It may have been a multi-leveled reference. Naremore's book has something about the fact that Thatcher's Christmas gift to the boy Charles is another, replacement sled named 'Crusader', with a picture of a knight's helmet instead of a flower. This suggests that 'Rosebud' had something to do with the Middle Ages as well as female genetalia. And of course, the Falstaff story takes place in the middle of England's 'War of the Roses', so there may be something there too.

It's probably also worth mentioning that when Hearst premiered one of Marion Davies' films (WHEN KNIGHTHOOD WAS IN FLOWER, was it?) he had bunches of roses placed strategically in the theatre and electric fans were used to blow the scent towards the audience. Probably the first use of smellovision in the movies.

What does this have to do with Bob Clampett? Beats me, but it seems a nice safe place to put such random notes for future reference. According to Wikipedia, Clampett did make the first Mickey Mouse dolls for Disney, who then promised him a job. But the tiny Disney studio didn't have room for him, and Clampett wound up at Looney Tunes instead.

[Roger Ryan]

It may have been a multi-leveled reference. Naremore's book has something about the fact that Thatcher's Christmas gift to the boy Charles is another, replacement sled named 'Crusader', with a picture of a knight's helmet instead of a flower. This suggests that 'Rosebud' had something to do with the Middle Ages as well as female genetalia. And of course, the Falstaff story takes place in the middle of England's 'War of the Roses', so there may be something there too.

I always assumed the two sleds symbolised two aspects of Kane's life: "Rosebud" represented the "lost eden", something delicate and fleeting, the beginning of life (not yet in full bloom); "Crusader" represented the aggression and power Thatcher would have promoted in young Kane. Of course, Kane becomes a crusader (in his own mind he is crusading for justice and the common people), so he accepts the role that Thatcher promotes, later wondering whether he would have been "a really great man" without that influence (what would that rosebud have been like in full bloom?).

[Le Chiffre]

Maybe like Falstaff. I wonder if the two sleds don't also symbolize two kinds of knights: the 'Crusader' knight, like Prince Hal/Henry V (who uses his power to go out and conquer the world), and the 'Rosebud' knight, like Falstaff (who just wants to stay home and get fat in his Eden).

Kane seems like someone who fell into the Crusader route after the Rosebud route failed to put him in the White House. During his days as a politician, Hearst was referred to as a 'hypocritical leftist', someone who pretended to be a crusader for the common people, but only in order to use them as a power base. But I think it's more complicated and ambiguous then that. Kane himself is also like a symbol of the American republic turned empire.

One more thing: just saw THE GREAT MAN VOTES (1939) with John Barrymore, which Welles made a radio play of a year later while making CITIZEN KANE. At the beginning of the story, which takes place in 1923 during Prohibition, Barrymoore's character gets some illegal booze from a milk truck. The milk truck's company name is Rosebud Products. Coincidence?

[Kevin Loy]

Maybe like Falstaff. I wonder if the two sleds don't also symbolize two kinds of knights: the 'Crusader' knight, like Prince Hal/Henry V (who uses his power to go out and conquer the world), and the 'Rosebud' knight, like Falstaff (who just wants to stay home and get fat in his Eden).

Kane seems like someone who fell into the Crusader route after the Rosebud route failed to put him in the White House. During his days as a politician, Hearst was referred to as a 'hypocritical leftist', someone who pretended to be a crusader for the common people, but only in order to use them as a power base. But I think it's more complicated and ambiguous then that. Kane himself is also like a symbol of the American republic turned empire.

Ah, but if you call Falstaff a "rosebud" knight, you must also keep in mind that Falstaff's treachery is, like a rose, only realized when you come into contact with it. In his own way, Hal as the "crusader" was more or less what he presented himself to be (though it isn't quite that simple, as we watch Hal grow older and have to accept his predetermined destiny), while Falstaff seemed like a jovial old man (or a 'harmless' flower) whose painful thorns were only realized at a closer glance.

In that light, I'd certainly say that, while some might have considered Kane to be a crusader, he was definitely a rose. Admirable from a distance...that is, if you like roses in the first place.