1999 Cradle Will Rock - Faithful to facts? A good movie?

[Sir Bygber Brown]

Tim Robbins movie about Cradle Will Rock production. Enjoyable? Well done?

[Glenn Anders]

Dear Sir Bygber: I thought CRADLE WILL ROCK a very interesting film, a complex labor of love on the part of Tim Robbins. It's theme is the commercialization of the Fine Arts, the turning of them into products.

Unfortunately, Robbins took an almost doctrinaire Marxian view of the famous Welles' WPA musical play, that of Marc Blitzstein: The Primary Artists against Capitalism. Nothing wrong with that, but in doing so, he consciously makes a parody out of Welles and Houseman.

Of course, at the time I saw it, I was unaware of the problems people were having with Beatrice Welles. Perhaps, that is why he called he film CRADLE WILL ROCK instead of THE CRADLE WILL ROCK. And perhaps, that is why he decided to make Welles and Houseman dilettantes.

Well, worth seeing for its artistic analysis of why our Arts now are sold by the gross, and sell corn flakes, etc.

Here is my review of it, if you are interested:

Glenn

http://www.epinions.com/mvie-review-2F84-93E8FE-38629B57-bd1

[Sir Bygber Brown]

Thanx Glenn - very interesting. Might check it out.

[blunted by community]

Byger Brown:
i thought the robbins film was a boring failure, and i didn't see fit to waste a $1 video on it. it's not really about welles, but that is not the reason i thought it stunk. i really didn't care about the politics of the film, i just wanted to see an entertaining film, and for me it was a boring failure. though the film did look good. did not look cheap, or low budget. it has rich colors, and nice sets. if you are into rich colors and nice sets, it's the film for you.

once again it's not even close in entertainment value if put beside RKO-281, which has rich colors, great sets, and a story!!! RKO-281, and a made for tv movie about war of the worlds so far have been the only 2 films on welles i found worth keeping. and the made for tv film is barely worth keeping. it has some good radio station scenes cut around a bunch of BS melodramatic stories about how it affected people.

i know glenn is not a fan of RKO-281, but i did not have any problem with it. i found it very high in entertainment, and production value, and the actors were good in it.

HBO has made a few good films. their rat pack film was good, and factually not far off the mark at all. their gotti film factually was a complete fantasy but otherwise very entertaining. RKO-281 had a few factual turkeys in it, but otherwise entertaining.

i wonder if glenn also recomends BIG BRASS RING. another film high in production value and a boring failure in every other aspect.

[Glenn Anders]

Blunted, we always aim to please, especially when it's for you who make your incisive, elegant criticisms, and raise such provocative questions.

Actually, Blunted, I didn't like George Hickenlooper's film either, but I saw in it the ghost of the magnificent film which might have been made from Welles' superb script, a copy of which I once owned.

Here is the URL of my review of THE BIG BRASS RING:

http://www.epinions.com/content_28860059268

Re-reading it, after well over a year, I am struck how relevant Welles' original screen play might have become right, at this moment. If William Blake Pellarin were named John Forbes Kerry, with a rich wife, attempting to rest America away from a rightwing nut . . . .

CITIZEN KANE REDUX -- Big Time. A picture for our time and beyond.

But the people involved with the production of THE BIG BRASS RING had a failure of nerve and vision -- which, I believe, Welles would not have. He would have shown us what has been coming down in America for some time.

Pity.

Hope this is helpful.

Glenn

[blunted by community]

i own big brass ring screenplay, and craddle will rock screenplay and don't think either of them are any good. i have the touch of evil screenplay and it's rather plain, and not near as good as lets say taxi driver screenplay, or treasure of the sierra madre screenplay. i have the citizen kane screenplay and there is nothing remarkable there either. i have dreamers, heart of darkness, and lady from shanghai screenplays but have not read them yet. i have skimmed lady from shanghai and it looks superior to the above mentioned screenplays. i have the ending of an early draft of lady from shanghai. it's like an acid trip, and is an interesting read.

the best welles screenplay i've read to date, is the first draft of the stranger. i have the second draft but have not read it yet. the first draft has some excellent, poetic writing in it, but it was written with huston, and veiller, and huston is an excellent writer.

i also have a few articles written by welles and they are long winded and rambling.

i don't feel welles had any genius as a writer. i do feel he is the greatest filmmaker of all time. and he had genius as a conversationalist, as this is orson welles proves.

i can't read your articles, glenn. i've tried a few and they tell me a little bit about everything and not a lot about anything in particular. i like film writing that makes me go back and look at the movie. david bordwell makes me go back and look at any film he writes about, and sometimes andrew sarris makes me go back and look at the film again. your writing is like pauline kael's. that is not a slight. she was very successful, just not my cup of tea.

years ago a writer told me to get a dictionary and look up the word poignant. he said i should try to apply that to everything i write. that changed a lot for me. the jabberwocky thing is also important for a writer to know. what the hell is jabberwocky considered anyway? a poem?

[blunted by community]

SIR BROWN, if you want the most kick-ass account of craddle will rock, you will need a few things.

john houseman's A RUN-THROUGH
frank brady's OW
barbara leaming's OW
scissors
scotch tape
some blank pages
(you can get the 3 books from the public library)

make copies of the craddle account in each book. hack up these pages, seperating the events. then get some blank pages and tape these hunks in chroniological order. you will have the most kick-ass account of the event.

to open the paste-up you cut out the speilberg story in the frank brady book where welles courted speilberg for money to make the film. welles got no money and was stuck with the diner bill.

so you have the speilberg story first. then you write by hand, "welles comes home, tells his daughter what happened at diner. depressed he goes in his room, lies in bed and looks at the ceiling. FADE OUT:

FADE IN:
1930s new york"

then your paste up follows.

you will have a great read. and if after the FADE IN, you have the account of welles riding in an ambulance from radio station to radio station, your read will be even more colorful than it already is.

tim robbin's film, and welles' screenplay don't come close to how incredible this event was.

[Oscar Christie]

I agree with Blunto on three things.

Welles's Cradle screenplay was awful.

The Big Brass Ring Screenplay was boring

And Tim Robbins failed to capture the true drama of the moment.
(Still I'm a great admirer of Robbins for having gotten the thing made-
it lost somebody a lot of money)

Finally, I strongly agree about Houseman.

His telling of the story is letter perfect.
All any one had to do was follow Houseman's writing and they'd
have an awesome piece of drama.

[blunted by community]

oscar, i wonder why robbins ignored the great coverage there is on the event and made the ponderous picture he did?

the houseman book IS excellent. i love the account he gave on the staging of FAUST.

i also like robbins. he's been in some excellent films - hudsucker proxy, the player, 5 corners, shortcuts, and of course, his crowning acheivement, howard the duck. shawshank was a good film but not a favorite of mine.

and i don't feel i'm knocking welles by saying i did not like big brass ring, and craddle. i'm a die-hard sinatra fan but the last 2 cds, the duets, sucked. frank's voice was shot, he was probably pushing 80. i'm just calling it as i see it. i was surprised that a guy that writes about films, and is a welles fan recomends craddle, and knocks rko-281! but to each his own.

glenn: that thing you posted about "craddle will rock" instead of "THE craddle will rock," and the characterazations of welles and houseman to skirt legalities??? come on. that is ludicrous! i'm going to bootleg a bunch of the beatles records but i'm not going to call them "THE beatles," i'm going to call them "beatles." when they come to take me away i'll be yelling, "but, but wait, glenn anders said...."
.

[Oscar Christie]

Blunto,

I don't share your conclusions about Robbins Cradle.

When it first came out, I couldn't see past Robbins mischaracterization of Welles and my disappointment after anticipating the picture so much.

After I read Houseman's account, I became convinced that it was the most dramatic incident in Welles life and would make a great film. When, a decade later, I learned that someone was really going to produce it, I was so excited, that it was probably inevitable that I would be let down.

Then after a while a started to watch it again and again, and now it is one of my favorite films.

Some of the many things I like about the film:

The performances:

Bill Murray and the dummy,
"Let's do the old act Tommy, One more time - "

the Blitzstein characterization

The Olive Stanton characterization,
(though crucially, not her singing as Moll.)

seeing the Conmgressional hearing and the
the Hallie Flanagan

seeing the jail cell scene come to life in Blitzstein's mind


the Diego Rivera, (compare to Frieda)

the Rocky and the Hearst

seeing the recreation of the performance, with all of its dramatic flaws, I do like the songs in Cradle.

I also think Robbins does not get enough credit for replicating the "plot" of Blitzstein's Cradle, in detail, in the plot of the film.

I've had this on my mind for a long time and I appreciate you raising the topic, so I could get it in writing.

[blunted by community]

i'm open minded. i'll give craddle another look.

many films i didn't like the first few times then liked later.

also, there are films that i did not like then heard from people who's taste i respect that i need to see it again, and my opinion was turned around. some of falstaf's scenes in chimes i did not like. the scene with faslstaf lying in the tavern, "2 missbegottem knaves in candle green." i mentioned this one night while discussing chimes with a friend that writes films and he looked at me like i had lost my nut. i rewatched, and my opinion was turned around. not only did i find that the framing was telling a story, but i began to find humor in the word-play.

[Glenn Anders]

Dear Oscar: You seem to be of two minds about CRADLE WILL ROCK, but I'll take your second one. Like my first experience with MYSTIC RIVER, I was disappointed with CRADLE WILL ROCK (for similar reason: the characterizations of Welles and Houseman), but I came back to it, and of course, when I recognized what Robbins was getting at, his vision of the commodification of the Popular Arts, I came to accept it, as you may have read in my review of it at Epinions.

And I agree with both you and Blunted, that Houseman's account was splendid. Perhaps a combination of Welles' screenplay and Houseman's account would have been ideal for CRADLE WILL ROCK.

As far as Welles value as a screenwriter, Blunted, I expect that the evidence will show that he was great in envisioning concepts and probably pretty good with dialogue, but that his methods were those of one who, at his best, "improved" the drafts of others, whether on the stage, in radio, or in movies and TV. He was experimental in the best sense of the word, but not, perhaps a finished creative writer. In prose, perhaps the essay was his forte, which he seemed to move toward from the mid-1940's on, in essays, political speeches and columns. Sorry that you find them boring, Blunted, but you should cut Welles a little slack for taking up subjects like "Civil Rights" or the growth of monopolies that few in the popular arts or mainstream politics and journalism risked pounding away at, as he did.

Yes, Blunted, "Jabberwocky" is a poem by Lewis Carroll -- the guy who wrote Alice in Wonderland/Through the Looking Glass. It appears in one of those sections, I can't remember which, off hand.

Sorry that you couldn't cut my review of THE BIG BRASS RING (or others I have cited here, for that matter). Most of my Epinions reviews can not take into account the interests of cults. The management "pays" me to give information, make judgments, and provide connections. They are not interested in formal essays. In the case of THE BIG BRASS RING, however, I believe, at least I hoped, that you would notice a departure. The theme of the review is the theme of F FOR FAKE, and all Welles' later work: the dual importance and irrelevance of a name on a piece of work or in a human being's life. Certainly, that theme of Welles' as appilied in THE BIG BRASS RING, is a "poignant" one. And I humbly believe, that in this case, my review comes close to being a formal essay on that poignant subject.

In my CRADLE WILL ROCK review, my defense is that I only added recently what I had learned here in the Forum about Beatrice Welles' litigiousness. If I am to believe accounts of the actions her lawyer has filed on picayunish matters related to the Welles Estate, I should think that the fear of being held up over the title of a docudrama on the production of a play, which Welles directed, and in which he is depicted, might have worried Robbins. Law suits have been filed and won over the addition or deletion of an article adjective in a title copywrighted by someone else. In this case, there would also have been the Marc Blitzstein estate to worry about.

Not so wild a nightmare.

But I agree with you, Blunted, that almost anonymous writer of additional dialogue for movies, Bill Shakespeare, writes pretty good word play in CHIMES AT MIDNIGHT. Right up there with Herman J. Mankiewicz.

Meanwhile, why don't the three of us collaborate on a screenplay entitled, "Craddle Will Rock." Peter Bogdanovich might announce that he was considering being our director, and it would throw Beatrice off the track while he and Frank Marshall complete THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND.

Hurrah!!

All the best.

Glenn

[Oscar Christie]

Meanwhile, why don't the three of us collaborate on a screenplay entitled, "Craddle Will Rock."

OK

[blunted by community]

glenn, comparing willy shakes with mank is blasphemy. i hope you were joking or god will strike you down.

the skeleton for the screenplay is in the paste up i discribe above. do the paste up then rewrite the whole thing in your own words, but not in screenplay form, write a treatment first. fiddle with it till it works then write the screenplay from the treatment. the events of craddle could dethrown welles' voddo macbeth as the greatest night of theater america ever saw.

i understand glenn, your guy does not want essays for a college text, he wants your writing to pander to the average schmoe, and hook him into a purchase, so you have to keep your reviews light.

for a short while i wrote film crit for a newspaper and was sick of watching bullshit films. everything i had to write made me want to puke. i quit when i was asked to do a comparison chart between the 2 basket ball playing dog movies. the dog from movie 1 died, and the dog from movie 2 was not as good. they wanted me to analyse the 2 films and design a cool looking chart to illustrate side by side dog talent comparisons.
very depressing.

i'm jaded. i can't read leonard maltin, kael, or ebert reviews because of their simplicity due to their need to appeal to a wide chunk of macdonalds workers, and pro wrestling fans.

i tend to lean towards bordwell, stephen heath, eisenstein's film form, john belton, and on the lower end bogdanovich, and sarris i find informative.

[Oscar Christie]

I like Michael Wilmington.

He co wrote with Jim McBride,
the outstanding book of essays on John Ford.

www.rottentomatoes.com/author-258/