Uncredited Welles

[Flint]

Hey all-
I'm about half way through Frank Brady's "Citizen Welles" (a terrific read) and have come to the chapter covering "Black Magic" which Mr. Brady says that Orson pretty much directed. This brings to two films (so far, that I know of) that are credited to someone else but which Orson had a huge hand in - "Journey Into Fear" being the second. I'm interested in people's thoughts on films like this and their relationship to the Welles canon. A film where Orson directed the majority of the scenes, but was not involved with script selection or post isn't all that different a situation from some of his works as the official director (perhaps). Do you consider them legitimate Welles or merely interesting novelties?

-Flint.

[Glenn Anders]

Dear Flint: It seems to me that in the period from 1941 through, say, 1948, Welles was a huge influence on other Hollywood films, whether he was on the set or not. Directors open to new ideas sought his advice and company. In addition to those films you mention, THE DEVIL AND DANIEL WEBSTER, JANE EYRE, MONSIEUR VERDOUX, CYRANO DE BERGERAC, KEEPER OF THE FLAME, THE THING, and NEW ORLEANS have definite, even specific connections to Welles. Those films, however, belong to their directors. I think the films, and scores of other which followed, should be judged on their merits, not as "legitimate Welles or interesting curiosities."

Like the American, in many ways he most resembles, Walt Whitman, he might fairly have said: "I contain multitudes."

Glenn

[Flint]

Glen-
Let me rephrase my line of questioning. I wasn't very clear. Sorry
I do not refer to those films that were influenced by Welles. (We're still seeing that today). But rather those films in which he acted where people have afterwards stated that Orson in actuality did most of the directing (i.e. Black Magic). Also, my question is not the relative merits of such films, but whether or not there exist any such films that members of the board consider Orson's rather than the credited directors.

For example: I consider "Poltergeist" and "Nightmare Before Christmas" Speilberg and Burton films, respectively. Despite the talents of Hooper and Selnick (sorry, can't remember exact spelling) these are clearly the work of the former and would have been so regardless of the hired directors (IMOP). Could the same be said for "Journey into Fear"? Or any others that involved Welles?




-Flint

[blunted by community]

From what I have read, the only 2 times welles completely ran over a production was JOURNEY, and BLACK MAGIC. I’ve also read that when some one arrived on the set of BLACK MAGIC, they found welles on a rooftop directing, and ratoff in a period wig as part of a crowd scene.

Also read somewhere that ratoff’s carreer was nowhere. That he used to lose money playing gin with selznik (?) and some one else, and the way he repaid his debts was by directing films for nothing. Can’t blame ratoff for letting welles take over. BLACK MAGIC might have been his ticket out of that.

every one thinks welles had a lot to do with directing THIRD MAN but i read he was only on the set for 10 days.

and i would be willing to bet that welles tried to bull jaglom around when he was acting in, IN A SAFE PLACE. but this film came out so boring that it does not look like welles got through to him.

Welles credits foster for the direction in JOURNEY, but I see his style in certain places.

From what I’ve read, I don’t think welles ever again had such control in a film he was not hired to direct. He tried every time I’m sure. He always gave suggestions, and sometimes they were taken. the other place where I see a lot of welles where he was not hired to direct, is the tv version of KING LEAR.

GLENN: I’M NOT SAYING YOU ARE WRONG

I’m saying this is what I have read. I’ve read mostly everything except what has come out in the last 4 years? From the callow, and thomson books on, I have read nothing. If new facts came out, I have not read them.

The andregg book I heard was good, bought it, but could not get into it.

flint, one of my favorite directors to see for welles' style, is anthony mann. mann loved welles, and you can see it in a lot of his films, not in all his films. T-MEN, and HE WALKED BY NIGHT show more welles influence than i've found in other films. and also robert aldrich's earlier films..

[Flint]

Blunted-
Thanks for the great info. I'll have to check out those films you mentioned - as well as "Black Magic" (which I have not seen) and see how prevelant the Welles touch is. Personally, I think I do side more with Glen's take on the matter, but I do think it's an interesting question, one with a lot of grey...

-Flint

[maxrael]

i think Journey Into Fear would have had a much more interesting position in the Welles cannon had it not been hacked apart so badly as to make bits of it incomprehensible.. (e.g. dead characters appearing alive and well later in the picture!)
Isn't it the case that Welles more designed (or rather helped design) the direction, storybroads shots etc. directed his own scenes then left the rest to Foster, as he was busy with Ambersons, and then off to Brazil.

i saw Black Magic once, on a snidey vhs copy i bought from ebay... found it entertaining, but not amazing... maybe i need to rewatch and dig a little deeper...

best wishes,
max

[Glenn Anders]

Max: You are quite right about JOURNEY INTO FEAR. Welles was directing THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS by day, and working on JOURNEY INTO FEAR at night. When he finished . . . AMBERSONS, and his scenes in . . . FEAR, he was away to Brazil, and the faithful Norman Foster completed JOURNEY INTO FEAR, but the script Welles and Joseph Cotton collaborated on was much more complex in scope, a kind of vestpocket CITIZEN KANE about the Balkans arms trade. Scenes were shot which rounded out the characters of many of the passengers on the ship, and Richard Bennett (the Captain) was to be a major character. The film was ruthlessly cut into a standard thriller of the day. The theme and template were better realized two years later in Negulesco's THE MASK OF DIMITRIOS, which made a star of Zachary Scott in a Wellsian part, another Ambler tale involving Colonel Haki of the Turkish police, shot in the style of CITIZEN KANE . (And of course, Welles returned to the subject in M. ARKADIN.)

Flint, I am not attacking your position. I'm simply pointing out that some of the films under discussion may have been directed, in part or whole, by Orson Welles but it is the name registered as the director, which settles the matter. (Here, I agree with Blunted.) Welles co-wrote, planned and set up JOURNEY INTO FEAR. The film is obviously a Welles film, but he generously (as was often remarked in those days) gave full credit to Foster.

And Blunted, you are quite correct that Welles had such interest and knowledge in Cagliostro that Gregory Ratoff, back in his beloved Europe after the War, was content to allow him to direct most of BLACK MAGIC, a film which Welles dominated. (On the positive side, Welles did strengthen a bond with Akim Tamiroff, whom he knew through Preston Sturges.) Unfortunately, the film is pretty negligible. In fact, as you suggest, Blunted, Welles attempted to direct a number of films which followed, such as THE PRINCE OF FOXES (King, 1949) and THE BLACK ROSE (Hathaway, 1950), at least when they involved his scenes, or those of Mercury players. (I have read an account by Cinematographer Jack Cardiff how Welles, playing Kubla Khan in animal skins and huge padding under a North African sun, kept spoiling take after take because assigned Director Henry Hathaway would not agree to his interpretation of a scene.)

On the other hand, though not a piece of Wellsian direction, a combination of John Ford (Cinematographer Joe August, Jane Darwell, etc.) and Welles (Composer Bernard Herrmann, ) is clearly and happily evident in German Expressionist Director William Dieterle's THE DEVIL AND DANIEL WEBSTER (in production on the same RKO lot as CITIZEN KANE in 1941), a story which Welles had done twice in the form of economically told radio plays. Max Reinhardt, who was one of Welles' gods, brought Dieterle to Hollywood (A MIDSUMMER NIGHT'S DREAM, 1936), and no other Dieterle American film shows the suppleness of THE DEVIL AND DANIEL WEBSTER. If some collaboration (amazingly) did not take place there, it is generally agreed that British Director Robert Stevenson, new to Hollywood, deferred to Welles on JANE EYRE in the handling of many scenes, especially those involving him and Mercury Player Agnes Moorehead.

It is also agreed by a number of parties present that THE THING FROM OUTER SPACE was directed, in part, by Welles after his friend, Howard Hawks, turned the film over to fledgling director, Chris Nyby.

Blunted, we have been through THE THIRD MAN before. No one is saying that Welles wrote and directed the whole thing, but again, accounts by a number of those present credit him with writing (or re-writing) and directing some of the scenes in which he appeared.

As to MONSIEUR VERDOUX (1947), Charlie Chaplin gives credit on the film to Welles for contributing the idea on which it was based, and Welles told Peter Bogdanovich that he wrote the script largely used by Chaplin in hopes of a full collaboration. The awkward NEW ORLEANS (Lubin,1947) eventually emerged from a promised epic biopic on the life of Louis Armstrong, as part of IT'S ALL TRUE. About the same time, Welles wrote a script for CYRANO DE BERGERAC, but Selznick refused to give up the rights, even when Welles provided the narration for DUEL IN THE SUN as a favor. George Cukor's KEEPER OF THE FLAME (1943) is a KANE-like expose of Senator Bankhead (which Welles' good friend Tallulah must have signed off on, at some point).

Finally, Blunted, you must realize that first time director Henry Jaglom would not have been able to launch his career in A SAFE PLACE without the aid of Welles. He welcomed Welles' help, remained a friend until the end of Welles' life, and incorporated Welles doing a magic trick into the logo of his ongoing company, International Rainbow Pictures, which has supported Oja Kodar in recent years.

Can anyone add anything else here?

Glenn

[Flint]

Glen-
I am not really clear on your answer to my original question. I started this thread by asking which films not credited to Orson does anyone believe are actually his, based on his level of involvement. Are there any at all? You say that
"it is the name registered as the director, which settles the matter." But then go on to say that JOURNEY INTO FEAR is obviously a Welles film. I believe he's not credited. Could you clarify? Are you saying this is the one exception?

As a side note, based on the responses so far, I gather that JOURNEY is really the only film not credited to Welles that could be arguably his.

-Flint

[blunted by community]

i have not seen black magic in years, but i don't remember it being very wellesian in it's visual style.

i know jaglom was very impressed with welles, and was a dear friend and all that, but IN A SAFE PLACE bears none of welles' visual style. i have it. it's a chore to watch. could be one of the most boring movies i have made myself sit through.

flynt, also check out the aldrich film from the mickey spilane book, forgot the name. ralph meeker is in it. it's the most wellesian film aldrich made. as T-men is the most wellesian film mann made. neither of these films comes close to a welles film, but i love his visual style so much that i also enjoy seeing it by other directors.

and the weakest example of a director copying welles style is JFK. stone credits f for fake for the look of jfk.

and sorry glenn, was not aware you guys had already discussed the third man. next time i'll search the site before i post. and who's account is it that welles directed his own scenes? why would carol reed hand his film over to welles?
i've always read welles was in and out of the third man in 10 days because he was making othello at the time. it's in a book about korda written by a Korda, called CHARMED LIVES. excellent book and has a lot of revealing stuff on the welles/korda relationship

[Harvey Chartrand]

You can add JANE EYRE to the list of actual Welles films for which he receives no credit as director. Even after the double defeats of AMBERSONS and IT'S ALL TRUE, Welles wasn't beaten down quite yet. He still had his youthful energies and monumental egotism and basically took charge of JANE EYRE from the affable Robert Stevenson, who went on to direct Disney pictures.
Still, something is missing. I hate JANE EYRE (probably because those gothic romances never appealed to me).

[Glenn Anders]

Dear Flint: Sorry, I am obviously not making myself clear. I guess there are four categories: 1) Films obviously directed by Welles; 2) Welles obviously directed, in part or whole, by Welles, but credited to others; 3) films said to have been written and planned, in part or whole, by Welles but credited to others; and 4) films said to be influenced by Welles, which can mean anything, I suppose.

We know the films in Category 1, but in JOURNEY INTO FEAR, we begin to see a cross-over to Category 2 (which comes up again in F FOR FAKE and in THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND). JOURNEY INTO FEAR was made under the aegis of The Mercury Players, which in the theater or radio or then in movies had assumption that they were a cooperative for which Welles fronted, and their contracts reflected that. And so, much like Hitchcock and his storyboards, the planning of a Welles project was realized by a Paul Stewart or a Norman Foster, with Welles coming in to direct crucial scenes or add imaginative touches, as they occurred to him.

What I am saying, again, is that JOURNEY INTO FEAR falls into Category 2. It was written by Welles and Cotton, prepared for production by Welles. After Welles turned the direction over to Norman Foster on completion of a number of important scenes, and because the Mission to Brazil at the behest of Nelson Rockefeller took far longer than anticipated, he generously gave full credit to Foster.

He also sent Foster to Mexico to shoot a sequence for IT'S ALL TRUE, which they had previously planned and scouted, which I suppose is Category 3.

It's the difference, in Hollywood, between who does what and who gets credit for it. Those matters were less clear in 1942 than they are today. JOURNEY INTO FEAR is officially a Norman Foster Fillm; it's hard to guess what would have happened if Welles had returned in time to deal with the editing.

Harvey and I are in agreement on JANE EYRE. Like JOURNEY INTO FEAR, I would place it in Category 2. He directed much of it, but the credit goes to Robert Stevenson, as I pointed out earlier.

And whatever we may think of it, BLACK MAGIC very likely belongs in Category 2. I think, using this paradigm, the other possibilities fall into Category 3, if not Category 4.

I hope that clarifies my position.

Glenn

[Flint]

Glen-
Beautifully put. One question: you list "The Other Side of the Wind" in catagory #2. How so? I've never heard that anyone other than Welles had anything to do with it. Are you refering to the fact that it is unfinished and will have to be completed by someone else? Or is there more to the story that I am unaware of?

-Flint

[Glenn Anders]

Blunted, would you accept Frank Brady's CITIZEN WELLES that THE THIRD MAN, though through a mirror darkly, belongs at least in Category 3? Between pp 446-452, he discusses Welles' influence on the film, in detail, including a quotation from your source, Michael Korda's CHARMED LIVES. He relates, as you have, Welles' constriction over finishing OTHELLO or signing for THE THIRD MAN. The film seems to have been a combination of a description given to Alexander Korda (Michael's uncle) by a foreign correspondent of the postwar degradation of his beloved Vienna; a 20 year-old abandoned story by Graham Greene, set in London; and a volatile collaboration on the fly with Director Carol Reed, Welles and (perhaps) others. After wanting his scenes shot in studio at Shepperton, threatening to quit over it, Welles reluctantly played his first scene in the sewers of Vienna, but following the take Welles was not satisfied with it:

". . . It was not dramatic enough. He [Welles] talked with the cameramen, discussed it further with Reed, and soon he was completely immersed not only acting Harry Lime but making the film. After some ten more takes, both Reed AND Welles had what they wanted, both practically and psycologically . . . . " [p.449]

Brady relates how Reed, Joseph Cotton, Alida Valli, and Welles found Anton Karas in a Vienna wine cellar, which provided the distinctive (and I find distracting) music for THE THIRD MAN.

Brady goes on to write, "There has been much discussion about whether THE THIRD MAN was directed by or at least influenced by him." I would have thought that he had already established that fact. He points out that the first person singular point of view, so prized by Welles, does not appear in Greene's original screen play, and that the film's opening line "sounds as if it came from a 1939 Mercury [radio] production." He notes that the baroque style for the film, its distorted camera angles, variegated shadows, overlapping dialogue are much closer to Welles than what Reed had done previously, but concludes, rather surprisingly, I think, that from interviews with both Reed and Welles, "it is fairly certain that Orson had only a peripheral effect, as any actor might, on the final look, or heart of the film."[p.450]

[Pretty big periphery, I would say, but in other words, as I have been unsuccessfully explaining to Flint, THE THIRD MAN is one of the films on which Reed's reputation is based, and that's that. He gets the full credit. To argue otherwise would lead to chaos.]

Brady concludes his main description of Welles' contribution, however, by giving Harry Lime's famous "cuckoo clock speech," and quoting Carol Reed: '''The popular line of dialogue concerning Swiss cuckoo clocks was written into the script by Mr. Orson Welles.'"

My last word on the controversy would be that we should also add that Jo Cotton, a talented writer and a collaborator with Welles, might well have made a contribution, as might have David Selznick, who had a strong interest in the project, and was never able to keep his hands off anything he dealt with.

[I think you can draw a line from Category 1 Welles' CITIZEN KANE (1941) and Category 2 JOURNEY INTO FEAR (1942) through Negulesco's Category 4 THE MASK OF DIMITRIOS(1943), Jules Dassin's THE NAKED CITY (1948), NIGHT AND THE CITY (1950), Reed's THE THIRD MAN (1949), John Huston's THE ASPHALT JUNGLE, and back to Category 1 Welles: M. ARKADIN (1955).]

So far as Henry Janglom is concerned, he was obviously influenced by Welles' example: a seldom heard of previously American independent director. A 30 year-old first time director, Janglom was no doubt influenced by Welles on A SAFE PLACE, but the film is his. Catetory 3, I would say.

The Robert Aldrich film you want, Blunted, is KISS ME DEADLY (1955). I think that would fall into category 4. Aldrich's later pictures, such as THE BIG KNIFE (1955) and ATTACK! (1957) would be even better examples of a Welles' "influence" on Aldrich. If Welles had ever made a modern war film, it would have looked like ATTACK! They are all Category 4.

Finally, the obvious influence of Welles' F FOR FAKE on Oliver Stone in writing and directing JFK is that Stone was incorporating large amounts of documentary footage with his own semi-documentary footage and dramatization to create an alternative to the Warren Commission's assemblage of evidence on the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

Also Category 4.

The Anthony Mann films you mention belong firmly in Category 4.

Happy New Year, Blunted.

[blunted by community]

glenn said:
Finally, the obvious influence of Welles' F FOR FAKE on Oliver Stone in writing and directing JFK is that Stone was incorporating large amounts of documentary footage with his own semi-documentary footage and dramatization to create an alternative to the Warren Commission's assemblage of evidence on the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

i said:
in the commentary track stone credits the cutting style, and look of JFK to F-For-Fake. i assumed that he meant the filming, and cutting style. did not think the way stone used documentary footage was anything like FFF, but every one sees things from their own angle. had not really thought about the documentary footage in JFK. Most of the documentary footage in f-for-fake was was extra narrative aquired for the film, and most of the documentary footage in JFK was narrative. but who knows. we ought to write stone a letter and ask him

i know welles found karas. also i know selznik was the producer that unhitch hitchcock's look. also i know that THE THIRD MAN is reed's only film that looks like that. the rest of his films i've seen are rather flat and boring. if welles was present during the entire production i would be more inclined to think that the he had more of a hand in suggestions.

before working with chaplin on COUNTESS FROM HONG KONG, brando immersed himself in chaplin films and was all excited about working with chaplin, till he met the little toad.

maybe reed immersed himself in welles work since he was going to be working with a legend. maybe it was selznik. if you watch duel in the sun a lot of over the top stuff in the film was selznick, and some bears striking resemblance to welles' craft. i just find it hard to swallow that welles' ten days on the set of the THIRD MAN was responsible for the entire look of the film. i think THIRD MAN falls into the category of a film influenced by welles.

this is just an opinion based on what i've read. i have no first hand knowledge of any of this. when welles was in vienna with reed, i was in spain with errol flynn, and cbanks chasing senoritas.

[Harvey Chartrand]

Carol Reed's earlier ODD MAN OUTand THE FALLEN IDOL have a distinctively Wellesian look.
If you put Orson Welles and Joseph Cotten in the same frame less than a decade after CITIZEN KANE, and the 2 characters have basically the same relationship or psychodynamics as Charlie Kane and Jed Leland, naturally people are going to assume that Welles had a hand in directing THE THIRD MAN.
Reed let Welles write a little speech for his Harry Lime character and was clearly influenced by Welles' style, but I doubt he handed over the whole shebang to Orson to direct.
Reed had a pretty good track record before THE THIRD MAN and several of his later films (often panned) are now being critically reevaluated (though, as David Lean often maintained, Reed "lost his nerve").
However, actor Austin Pendleton recalls that Welles did try to direct his own scenes in CATCH-22. In 1969, Mike Nichols cut Welles a lot of slack on CATCH-22 and the scenes with General Dreedle just don't work. Welles had no sense of comic timing and his scenes with Alan Arkin are among the least funny in that colossal misfire. By this time, Welles had become rather boorish and overbearing in the presence of a young director who had carte blanche on a film (the most generous contract offered a director since Welles' deal with RKO on KANE). So Orson's nose was out of joint. I'd love to see LONDON and other bits from ORSON'S BAG to verify if the Great One really was adept at comedy (though I did find THE FOUNTAIN OF YOUTH very amusing).