Welles's nephew editing TOSOTW

[RayKelly]

The point is that Eastwood was at the screening of OSOTW - probably shortly after Welles died - and it was fresh in his mind. No doubt that line could have originally come from a film made in 1931 and been used in six other movies since .

In his recent book, Whatever Happened to Orson Welles, Joseph McBride writes that Welles told him that he had lifted the line "Of course you are" from a put down Noel Coward once uttered.

[LamontCranston]

Clint Eastwood gives us a clue as he pinched 'Of course you are' from this film for his 'White Hunter Black Heart' and that came out in 1990. So work it out from there.

As usual my memory is currently devoid of sources, but I remember Oja Kodar mentioning the Eastwood screening around that time which he had requested in preparation for White Hunter Black Heart. I'm pretty certain it was mentioned separately from the Spielberg-Stone-etc screening.
Dodged a bullet with that lunch meeting though: Spielberg could have pulled an earlier A.I., hijacking 'The Cradle Will Rock' claiming Welles wanted him to finish it.
Someone who does deserve some praise though is Arnon Milchan: he had secured $6million to produce 'The Big Brass Ring' if Paul Newman, Robert Redford, Clint Eastwood, Burt Reynolds, Jack Nicholson, or Warren Beatty would play the lead. Needless to say, they all declined.

[MartynH]

The Frank Brady book gives an excellent exposition of our 'glorious six' and they way they elbowed Welles. Say what you like but you got to give Tom Cruise a lot of credit for taking two or three years out of his life to work with Kubrick. If only one of the six would have had the balls to make a decision like that then we would have had a film of the Big Brass Ring.

[Alan Brody]

On the other hand, there's the story of how Robert Deniro was interested in playing Blake Pellerin in The Big Brass Ring, but Welles didn't think he was right for the part. Another version of the story I've heard claims that Welles rejected him as being too "ethnic". This was right after Deniro had given one of the greatest performances of all time in Raging Bull.

[LamontCranston]

Isn't the character supposed to be the usual sort of mid-western, "all american", W.A.S.P. archetype?

[Tony]

Any of you guys read the Big Brass Ring script? I can easily understand why none of the actors chose to do it: it's very weird, and I think very badly written; in fact, it's awful. "Cradle" is much, much better, perhaps because Welles had a good script to work on. As for BBR, Welles wanted Gena Rowlands and John Cassavettes for the main roles, not that list of big box office guys. Also, remember by 82 when Welles was pitching it, he hadn't completed a feature since Chimes in 66: that's 16 years. And his health was very bad, much worse than was publicly known: for example, when he accepted the French Foreign Legion in 82, he was in a wheelchair. I think insurance would be a big problem in case he died part way through. So there's all these factors, including pissing monkeys and the gay subtext, which in 82 was just becoming acceptable. But basically, the script is just terrible, and would have to have been re-written.

Personally, I would watch Welles direct himself reading the phone book, but these guys had careers to think about, and BBR was just not commercial and not good.

But Cradle was really good- a terrific read; I think that's why it came much closer to being made.

[LamontCranston]

Tony, I've no idea who Welles first choice for the lead was, I was just repeating who Arnon Milchan specificed in order to get the $6million dollars. I guess that has been going on ever since the studios converted to the "high concept" productions, even if it is only a small film and requires only a few million (which might actually work against the film since it isn't a blockbuster), getting the budget and the film made all hinge on getting one "Name" actor in the lead.
He completed & released The Immortal Story in 1968 and F For Fake in 1974, so it is not 16 years but only 8 years.
Robert Altman had the same trouble with insurance on Prairie Home Companion, supposedly Paul Thomas Anderson was the stand-by. Anyone know of other cases of elderly directors having to do this?

[Terry]

When Akira Kurosawa was being neglected by the Japanese studios for being too Western and personally difficult, George Lucas and Francis Ford Coppola (both Kurosawa fans) asked 20th Century Fox to ensure completion funds for his film Kagemusha in the late 1970s, which was when Kurosawa was pushing 70 years old. Kurosawa reused the costumes for his subsequent film Ran, thus making it affordable.

In interviews Lucas and Coppola said that supporting Welles on The Other Side of the Wind was one of the things American Zoetrope wanted to do about a decade earlier, though they lacked the funds or clout at the time. It's unfortunate that that desire has perished in recent years.

Lucas said that even if Kagemusha were to be a bad film, he still wanted to see another Kurosawa production because "we [film directors] would learn something from it." So even if Big Brass Ring had a crap screenplay, you'd think the same thinking should apply. Good, bad, but certainly never indifferent, we could all have learned something from some more Welles films.

Too bad their interest in Welles had apparently waned by the time of Big Brass Ring and The Cradle Will Rock. I suspect Coppola was in financial straights after Apocalypse Now, but Lucas should have been in lucrative shape after Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back.

With regards to Names being a requirement of financing, that wound up being the downfall of Gilliam's Quixote film, as depicted in the documentary Lost in La Mancha. The financing was dependent upon Gilliam, Johnny Depp and Jean Rocheford being present, and when Rocheford went away after a few days filming with (I think) a herniated disc, the financing collapsed and the completion guarantor confiscated everything including Gilliam's screenplay, which he spent the next several years trying to buy back.

[Glenn Anders]

Good examples, you guys.

You might add that John Huston's son Tony did most of the footwork on the old man's last film, THE DEAD.

Glenn

[Tony]

It would be nice if it were a nicer, sweeter world, but it's not. The argument that Lucas, Spielberg, Coppola owed something to Welles in a financial way has always seemed bogus to me. Of course, they were influenced by him aesthetically, perhaps, and he was the symbol of the independently-minded director who got screwed by Hollywood, etc., (along with von Stoheim) but I don't believe they owed him anything. Welles himself said that the new Hollywood was much more difficult for him to work in than the old Hollywood. And Spielberg and Lucas are famous for being successful box-office guys: they pander to the middle-brow, and do so brilliantly. (Actually, I don't think they pander: they are middle-brow.) They don't throw money away, unless by accident. Spielberg bought the Rosebud sled, so Kane must have been important to him, but he didn't offer to finance a Welles picture. Why? Well, we'd have to ask him as opposed to always supposing he's a mean-spirited guy. But I'll hazard a guess: he thought that a Welles project was doomed to lose money, and he decided to not lose money. Can we really fault him for that? Also, I think tempermentally Kurosawa was, ironically, closer to the young turks than was Welles: the latter was much more experimental, and unpredictable in that he never made the same picture twice. And let's not forget: Welles could be a very imposing and difficult guy: it's often been said he was his own worst enemy in dealing with investors. He often treated the suits like garbage (even if they were friends like Louis Dolivet, who produced "Around the World with Orson Welles" and "Mr. Arkadin", and ended up suing Welles over unprofessional behaviour and drunkeness on-set). Chuck Heston said Welles never understood the idea that if you treat the money-men badly, you don't get to make pictures.

Lamont: I don't count "Immortal" as a feature because it was briefly in theatres in Europe as half of a double-bill along with a Reichenbach documentary on Welles, and then it went straight to French TV: it was intended as part of a Dinesen trilogy which Welles didn't complete, and it's just an hour long. As for "Fake", to me it's not a feature but a documentary, according to this definition: "Full length, fictional films (not documentaries or shorts), generally for theatrical release." For me, Chimes was at Cannes, but "Immortal" and "Fake" just dissappeared: most people never heard of them at the time of their releases.

So for me, "Chimes" is the last Welles feature completed, and in 1982, when he was searching for funding for BBR, "Chimes" would be the last picture possible investors would know about, unless they knew that "Wind" was left unfinished, as was "The Deep" and "Don Quixote" and "It's All True", and...

Let's be realistic here: would you invest millions in a film by a guy who was very ill, had a terrible reputation for being difficult, and was famous for not finishing pictures, and always lost money?

As a fan, I would; as a businessman, I wouldn't. The surprising thing is that Welles came as close as he did with BBR, Cradle and Lear. It's a heartbreak, for sure, but it always amazes me that Welles completed as many films as he did in this rough and tumble world. He did meet a few idealists along the way, though he probably left them bitter realists.

[LamontCranston]

Coppola had plenty of money after Apocalypse, it was the next film that caused his & Zoetropes financial problems; One from the Heart was originally supposed to be $2million and it wound up costing $26million! So certainly after that he couldn't have helped.

I'll hazard a guess: he thought that a Welles project was doomed to lose money, and he decided to not lose money.

I don't buy that, look at Spielbergs producer credits on imdb and you'll see plenty of bombs. Lets look at films Spielberg directed or produced around the time of Cradle Will Rock: Twilight Zone: The Movie (1983) $10million (plus one character actor & two vietnamese children...), Gremlins (1984) $11million, Temple of Doom (1984) $28million, Back to the Future (1985) $19million*, The Goonies (1985) $19million, Young Sherlock Holmes (1985) $18million, The Colour Purple (1985) $15million.
Arnon Milchans budget for Big Brass Ring is pretty damn small compared to those; Welles was always economical, although once he was in the editing room he could take his time; I'd be willing to bet Cradle Will Rock would have cost something like $6-$10 million.

*Back to the Future only got made because Spielberg backed it, Universal was very wary on account of every film Zemeckis & Gale were previously involved in - I Wanna Hold Your Hand, 1941, Used Cars - (Spielberg produced 1st & 3rd, directed 2nd) were utter duds.

So Coppola couldn't, Spielberg wouldn't, what's the story for the rest?

[Terry]

Whenever I've seen Lucas talk about Welles, he's always gotten an expression on his face like someone just farted. I guess that sums up his failure to contribute.

[LamontCranston]

link?

[Tony]

Lamont: you're still presupposing that somehow successful hollywood people owed it to Welles to rescue his career, which in large part had been sabatoged by him. This is like saying one businessman who is successful owes it to another who is flailing to bail him out. Sorry, but I just don't think human nature works like that. By 1975, with a 35 year reputation as a wastrel and a very difficult and tempermental guy who often didn't finish projects and who always lost money, plus the Higham book which put forth the 'fear of completion' theory, and the Kael piece which alleged that Welles didn't even write his biggest success, Welles was really hurting. Even when Bogdanovich was hot, he couldn't get funding for Welles (although he did offer Welles 'Daisy Miller'). The European funding had dried up, and the North American was gone as well. So it was off to Iran.

Still, it's a business, and I disagree with the idea that successful directors/producers like Spielberg and Lucas owed Welles anything. The American film industry and culture focusses more on the business part in general, so I've often thought it was a mistake for Welles to have left Europe in 1970. In America, he just sufferred. Other than Daisy miller, I think he was offerred one picture, and that was 'Popeye'.

[LamontCranston]

Lamont: you're still presupposing that somehow successful hollywood people owed it to Welles to rescue his career,

Well if they spend a great deal of time on effusive praise, it does then beg the question of why they didn't do anything when they had the opportunity.
Call my crazy but "I really love this directors work, but I wouldn't even buy him lunch" is a position I have a hard time getting my head around.