"Henry Jaglom and Paul Mazursky directed by Orson Welles"

[LamontCranston]

just found this on youtube, no idea what it is or where it is from
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wppeHCDKk4k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOVOXhvdKD4
Sure sounds like Welles behind the camera, anyone know what the story behind this is? In the second clip, is the guy with the beard and cowboy hat Dennis Hopper?

Actually now I dont think they're talking about Welles, the name 'Hannaford' slips through towards the end and in the second clip the Hopper lookalike refers to a 'Jake' - could this be material from The Other Side of the Wind? (In which case I guess the whole Jaglom/Mazursky argument is a put on)

[Terry]

Must be TOSOTW outtakes. Yes, that is Dennis Hopper.

I hadn't seen them before.

With the references to Jake and to Hannaford, what else could it be?

[Alan Brody]

Interesting clip, although I'm not sure how much more of Jaglom's mouth I could take.

[MartynH]

These sections seem to be some sort of test scenes for Other Side of the Wind. Jaglom plays some sort of pompous interviewer for some publication or other. Perhaps Huston wasn't available at this early stage and Welles was trying to get some feel for what he would do when he turned up?

It could be that Welles did shoot a scene based on this with Huston that we are yet to see. Hopefully, time will tell and quick!!!!!!!

[Roger Ryan]

These are indeed actual scenes (or, perhaps more accurately, one scene) shot for THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND. They appear to be two alternate rough cuts of the same scene: one which incorporates Dennis Hopper and one that doesn't.

Note the various lanterns that are being carried around. That sets the scene at Hannaford's ranch sometime after the power goes out (about midway through the screenplay). There is even a notation in the published Welles' screenplay that reads "CUT TO: SERIES OF SHORT SCENES (IMPROVISED) Between various types...including some celebrities." This footage matches that description. Apart from the obvious references by name to Hannaford, Jaglom comments on the homosexual subtext of Hannaford's dealings with lead actors which is a key plot point that develops in the second half of the story. One might also connect the Spanish Civil War reference to Ernest Hemingway whom Welles has always said was the chief inspiration for Hannaford.

I doubt this was simply test footage. I believe Welles shot footage for TOSOTW for a couple of years before John Huston was even cast! As Hannaford, Welles improvised a few off-camera lines here to guide the discussion, probably with the intention of removing them altogether or replacing them with Huston's voice. Again, as with almost all of TOSOTW footage edited by Welles, it's impossible to know how much of the scene would have remained in the final cut. I suspect just enough to establish the differing views of the "young" directors and the suggestion that Hannaford has a hidden agenda in dealing with lead actors.

[LamontCranston]

So I guess the question now is, who is sboudriot? how did s/he get these clips? are there more?

[Glenn Anders]

Lamont: I think Hadji, MartynH, and especially Roger (with his ability to study and interpret the script) have this footage fairly pegged, but I would be a little more cautious in suggesting how the material might eventually be used in a finished THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND. It might be commentary, it might be background, it might even be central.

The b&w photography, the general sound quality, and the (rough) editing are really impressive, more striking -- perhaps for being in b&w -- than I remember from some other out-take footage of the film.

The first sequence is quick and choppy, but it articulates the themes that may very well hold the picture together: the motivative power structure that created The Movies, the male dominated operation, the exploitation of women, the constant war between "the old" and "the new" from the Renaissance to the "Young Turk" film makers of the 1970's, the place of Hollywood movies as a serious art form in American Society.

The second sequence is quite similar, with the addition of Dennis Hopper, as Roger notes. But quite a bit of the stuff has been reshot, there's more camera movement, there's a solid two-shot, there are even a couple of establishing shots. This sequence may be simply a refinement of the first, or it may have been meant as part of an another purpose.

I'm, again, impressed by the quality of these prints, and I wonder where "sboudriot" got them. Having read the script for THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND myself, having hurt my head studying its pages, spent time listening to some of Bogdanovich's ideas, and watched over two hours of out-takes Stefan Droessler brought from Munich two years ago, I'm puzzled by how little "movie-movie" and real continuity there seem to be in the fuller mother lode portion of the main material. [A great deal of the material I saw lacked a sound track.] It's as if establishing shots, key sequences, (and footage like this material brought to us by "sboudriot") have been kept apart, perhaps in that Paris vault.

All of these observations are meant to emphasize how crucial the editing in the finished THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND is going to have to be.

As Roger points out, THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND was originally inspired by Orson Welles' mature disenchantment with his youthful idol, Ernest Hemingway. But, I think, Welles came to recognize the same selfish male qualities within himself, and within some of the peer directors he most admired. For that reason, John Huston, old friend and collaborator -- a "successful" director -- was a perfect choice for his lead, J.J. "Jake" Hanaford. And there was also a seasoning of George Stevens, whom some said tended to develop a scarcely sublimated letch for his leading men. But, if we're lucky, I think we'll find that, on a certain level, THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND is a film about Orson Welles himself (as a number of his major pictures were).

Anyway, I can assure everyone that, in the main footage, Paul Mazursky, Henry Jaglom, and Dennis Hopper are colorfully "at The Party" (still arguing but more politely). Paul and Henry have better hair cuts, and Dennis has trimmed his beard!

Glenn

[jbrooks]

Sadly, Joseph McBride's book reports that Welles never filmed Huston's half of these scenes. McBride suggests the scenes would make a great DVD extra.

[Roger Ryan]

Sadly, Joseph McBride's book reports that Welles never filmed Huston's half of these scenes. McBride suggests the scenes would make a great DVD extra.

I don't think it would be beyond the realm of possibility to include excerpts of the Mazursky/Jaglom conversation in a finished cut of the film. Intercut with other goings-on around the ranch, there are a number of key lines not directed specifically at Hannaford that could work without Huston being present. Then again, the ranch scenes may be rich enough with other footage that the Mazursky/Jaglom content would be superfluous.

[jbrooks]

The "Scenes from The Other Side of the Wind" that Stefan Droessler brought from Munich to New York's Film Forum 3 or 4 years ago included some of this footage, or at least, alternate takes of this same scene.

I recall that that footage featured Mazursky, Jaglom and Hopper -- all shot like this in the dark and in black and white. Does anyone know or recall whether it was this footage exactly?

[ToddBaesen]

I thought the You Tube scenes were sensational, and they are indeed quite different than from what was shown in the Unseen Orson Welles programs restored by the Munich film archive. And if what Mazursky says about doing ten minute takes is true, it seems that these scenes were edited down by Welles himself. And like so much of the movie, just because Huston wasn't there, is no reason they couldn't be included in the final film -- that is, if it is ever finished! That was how the movie was being made all along. Lilli Palmer and John Huston never even met on the picture and they have several important scenes together!

But looking at the two clips, it seems to me as if Welles foresaw this problem, as there is plenty of material where Jaglom and Mazursky are talking to each other and about filmmaking. And it's also possible that Welles shot enough scenes of John Huston where his reactions could be cut into the material as well.

I also saw the brief scene below, where Edmund O' Brian as Pat, sets up the snippets of Party dialogue that would go on between the various party guests, which would presumably include Jaglom and Maurzsky's scenes, Dennis Hopper, Curtis Harrington, Claude Chabrol and Stefan Audran and whoever else Welles shot footage of. Like the Jaglaom/Mazursky footage, Edmund O'Brien is filmed in the same rich black and white photography, so it seemed likely Welles intended to use the lights going out as an excuse to have an extended black and white sequence in the film.

_________


PAT (Edmund OBrien) grabs a director’s bullhorn to inform the startled guests of the situation regarding the loss of power:



PAT
Alright now, let me have your attention.
We have a power failure on our hands.
The ranch’s generator’s have broken down.
But we hope the situation will be
temporary. Meanwhile we’ll be getting
lamps for you from out in the stables and
lighting up candles, so you can all find
your way to the booze and the eats. The
projection of Mr. Hannaford’s motion
picture, "The Other Side Of The Wind"
will naturally be suspended until the
juice comes on. In the meantime, we trust
you good folks will find your own ways to
amuse yourselves.

[kipling71]

The two clips feel like reels of edited selects to me. For those who aren't editors, one way of working is to roll through the dailies, cut out all the bits you like, and then string them together on a selects reel so that all of the choice moments are more easily accessible. I imagine if/when Welles had gotten round to shooting the other half of this conversation with Huston, having gone through the Mazursky/Jaglom material beforehand would've helped him focus Huston's performance. Not that he necessarily needed to do this, but it would certainly have helped.

Someone expressed concern about a lack of traditional coverage - i.e. there's no establishing shot/full shot/medium shot/over-the-shoulder/closeup shooting here. First of all, one hardly ever ends up using ALL of that stuff even when one has it. Since Welles could cut in the camera with the best of them AND he was paying for the shoot out of his own pocket, why would he go to the expense of shooting stuff he knew he wasn't going to use? Besides, I haven't seen one cut scene from "The Other Side of the Wind" that has used anything remotely resembling a traditional cutting pattern.

Even if Welles never got round to shooting Huston's side of this conversation, I can easily imagine this footage being used in the collage I imagine the whole film to be. Pieces of conversations like this one could be intercut and cross-cut in such a way that they weave in and out of one another throughout without the audience ever seeing a beginning, middle, and end to each and every one. He did this loads of times in "F for Fake".

That snippets of "Other Side of the Wind" are leaking out implies that someone's working on it somewhere and makes me hopeful that a release may happen after all.

[Glenn Anders]

Very intriguing observations, Karl Morton the IV!

I like your insight that materials we've never seen before leaking out suggests that people are working on the film again.

Glenn

[kipling71]

Very intriguing observations, Karl Morton the IV!

I like your insight that materials we've never seen before leaking out suggests that people are working on the film again.

Thanks, Glenn! LOVED you in "Lady From Shanghai"!

Perhaps it's not insight so much as wishful thinking, but it keeps me warm at night. I've been quietly blogging about the new developments (I hope) regarding "The Other Side of the Wind" for a while - it's nice to find a place where people know what I'm talking about!

[mido505]

Time for some unwarranted speculation!

I have been pondering for some time now the thought that Gary Graver might have been in possession of a lot of Welles material that has fallen under the radar. After all, he had the long lost Oscar. And it is usually Graver in interviews who refers to legendary "almost complete" work prints that no one seems to be able to locate: TOSOTW, The Deep, Don Quixote. A while back I posted a whole slew of references to the Don Quixote cut that many people have seen and no one now can find. Perhaps Graver had it. I remember reading something here on Wellesnet at the time Gary (or perhaps his widow) passed away, refering to his widow having some kind of unspecified legal problems that she was dealing with. And Bogdanovich in Larry French's recent interview refers mysteriously to someone that was holding up the TOSOTW/Showtime deal, someone who was not Oja or Beatrice. Perhaps he was being reticent out of respect for Gary.

This YouTube stuff would not come from Beatrice, who would not profit from it, or from Oja, whom I doubt even knows what YouTube is. And the stuff that is showing up has Graver written all over it - Graver shot the Mazursky/Jaglom footage, as well as Filming Othello and A Gary Graver Movie.

I have been very busy as of late, and don't have time to hunt down all my references, but I will start to do so as time permits. In the meantime, I would appreciate any members of Wellesnet weighing in with opinions or evidence for or against. I fervently believe that a lot of this "lost" Welles material is still around, and Gary Graver's garage is as good a place to look as any.