Scenes edited by Welles

[londo]

In Joseph McBrides informative look at the making and history of TOSOTW he mentions 41 minutes of film edited by Orson Welles. I 've read that before, in a lot of articles here and in other places, but does anyone know, what scenes exactly Welles edited?

There is of course the "Party Scene", which you can watch on you tube and elsewhere, the scene with Oja's charakter, having sex in the car and the one with Billy (Norman Foster) and the studio exectutive in the screening room, but these together run less than 40 min.

I saw a screening in the Filmmuseum München a few years ago of a compilation called "Scenes From TOSOTW", It's approx. 45 min. long and probably compiled by Stefan Droessler. After the screening Mr. Droessler told me, he doubts, that there is such a thing as a workprint - (I hope, I remember that right).

Then I was lucky enough to see another collection of TOSOTW scenes, again about 45 min.long, maybe compiled by Gary Graver.
It has a commentary at the beginning,explaining the plot and showing some stills .

Both versions have the above mentioned scenes, as well as many others, and if you put all together, there is much more than 41 min.
And certainly there was no "Dixieland-style jazz music"(McBride) involved. Never heard of that before.

So, this is a little confusing and if anyone knows more about it, I would be happy to hear.

[Roger Ryan]

...I saw a screening in the Filmmuseum München a few years ago of a compilation called "Scenes From TOSOTW", It's approx. 45 min. long and probably compiled by Stefan Droessler. After the screening Mr. Droessler told me, he doubts, that there is such a thing as a workprint - (I hope, I remember that right)...

The "Scenes from THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND" was, indeed, compiled by Mr. Droessler, but he did not perform the editing of the scenes included; that work was done by Welles and represents (most of? all of?) the 40-odd minutes that could be considered "edited by Welles". As you pointed out, there is other footage that has floated around including material compiled by Gary Graver. Most of that additional footage has been presented only in rough assembly, much of it roughly-edited by Graver himself, so I believe McBride (along with others like Producer Filip Jan Rymsza) are making a distinction between the more-polished editing work done by Welles and the more rough assemblage of footage done by Welles, Graver or others.

When Mr. Droessler is saying that he doubts there is such a thing as a "workprint", I believe he means that Welles did not prepare a linear approximation of the feature film he envisioned. The forty-odd minutes Welles edited are of various scenes that could be used in the finished film, just not consecutively. In other words, when McBride and others say "41 minutes of the film has been edited by Welles", they do not mean the first 41 minutes of the film have been fully edited (or the last 41 minutes, for that matter), they are referring to a sampling of scenes Welles thought he would include in the film. Because of the sheer amount of footage he was shooting and, eventually, his lack of access to the negatives, Welles was never able to do a rough cut ("workprint") of the complete film.

More than likely, Welles would have probably discarded some of the forty-odd minutes of edited scenes he did complete or, at least, trim them down once he began assembling a feature-length edit. This is why I believe Rymsza, Marshall and Bogdanovich (and whomever they give the editing job to) should not consider the Welles-edited material untouchable. If something Welles edited isn't particularly effective in the context of the finished film or isn't effective at its full-length, the producers should feel free to delete the material or cut it down.

[Le Chiffre]

I agree with you, Roger. The forty minutes edited by Welles strike me as a rough tentative assembly, not finished work.

[Jedediah Leland]

After the screening Mr. Droessler told me, he doubts, that there is such a thing as a workprint -

I'm quite sceptical of a number of things Mr. Droessler says. I asked him about the near-complete 1969/70 Don Quixote workprint that is described in some detail by Mauro Bonanni, Beatrice Welles and Jonathon Braun, all in perfectly compatible terms; and he was quite categorical to the point of bluntness, that there is no Don Quixote workprint. Certainly, the materials screened from the Paris Cinematheque don't match with the description, but that doesn't seem to me to be grounds to say that no such workprint exists.

You're right, though, that Welles's scenes edited for 'Wind' may not be in a linear reel; indeed, why should they be? They're scenes taken from all over the film.

[Jedediah Leland]

More than likely, Welles would have probably discarded some of the forty-odd minutes of edited scenes he did complete or, at least, trim them down once he began assembling a feature-length edit.

Yes, there's some evidence for this if you compare the screening-room scene with Max David & Billy Boyle to the published screenplay.

In the screenplay, that one scene is inter-cut with lots of other scenes. What was shown at the AFI in 1975 was an assembly of all those screening room segments of that scene - presumably so that it made some coherent sense to the audience while Welles was touting for funds. Indeed, once I re-watched it on having read the script, I realised how many non sequitur lines there are in that scene - they're usually where there's been an abrupt cut to another scene, and then we've cut back to that scene. In this case, Welles edited the scene in this form to serve its short-term purpose, not because he necessarily saw it that way in the final movie.

[jbrooks]

In reading the published screenplay a year or so back, I was struck by how closely the footage that I have seen tracks the screenplay. I have seen more than an hour of edited (or roughly edited) material (Stefan Droessler's Scenes shown in New York in 2004 and 2015, the AFI scenes, the material in Graver's Working with Orson Welles, the workprint footage that leaked on vimeo, and scenes that Joseph McBride has shown). And, if I'm recalling correctly, every scene that I've seen is in the screenplay and nearly every line of dialogue is word for word. (Excluding, of course, the film within a film material, which is not described in the screenplay at all).

Edit/Addendum --

I also need to exclude the Mazursky-Jaglom-Hopper material, of course, which is not in the script and which is clearly improvised. (How the producers incorporate this footage will be one of the more interesting developments to watch. According to Joseph McBride, the Huston side of these conversations was never filmed. Will they use editing or digital trickery to insert Huston into these exchanges? Will they leave these scenes out entirely? My guess is that they'll use a few moments -- intercut with other party scenes -- but that the scenes won't feature prominently. We'll get one or two lines from Hopper and two or three lines from Mazursky and Jaglom.

[jbrooks]

Both versions have the above mentioned scenes, as well as many others, and if you put all together, there is much more than 41 min. And certainly there was no "Dixieland-style jazz music"(McBride) involved. Never heard of that before.

The party arrival scene with Huston, Bogdanovich and Susan Strasberg shown at the AFI Award has an underlying music track that might be loosely described as "Dixieland-style jazz music."

[Le Chiffre]

I think it's a Cole Porter song being played on the piano. It sounds like a fast version of "Delovely", maybe more Broadway than Dixieland. Porter of course, wrote the songs for Welles's AROUND THE WORLD stage extravaganza:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-y6UIEm08U

[jbrooks]

Le Chiffre, I believe you're right that it's Porter's DeLovely. I'm no musicologist, so I might call it ragtime. But I still think that's close enough to what might be called Dixieland Jazz style to be the temp soundtrack (or part of the temp soundtrack) to which McBride was referring. There are lots of Dixieland Band versions of Cole Porter tunes on youtube. And some Dixieland recordings have a similar feel. For example, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0cZtngCiwQ

[Le Chiffre]

Yeah, you're right; a lot of good Porter/Dixieland stuff on YouTube, including a complete album of Porter arrangements by the Pee Wee Hunt band, where DeLovely is at the 20:06 mark:


I had always assumed they would try and get Michel Legrand to do the music, to tie it in more closely with F FOR FAKE. He is a jazz composer, although he may be retired by now.

More than likely, Welles would have probably discarded some of the forty-odd minutes of edited scenes he did complete or, at least, trim them down once he began assembling a feature-length edit. This is why I believe Rymsza, Marshall and Bogdanovich (and whomever they give the editing job to) should not consider the Welles-edited material untouchable. If something Welles edited isn't particularly effective in the context of the finished film or isn't effective at its full-length, the producers should feel free to delete the material or cut it down.

I sometimes wonder if the people assembling the film shouldn't just totally disregard Welles's 40 edited minutes and just start completely from scratch. Then it would surely at least be more of a piece and not have any of that grotesque Frankenstein-like feel that made Jess Franco's Quixote so weird. The Welles edit could then be appreciated on it's own as a separate entity.

[Jedediah Leland]

I wouldn't rule out Bogdanovich having had some influence on the use of Cole Porter's 'De-Lovely'. Bogdanovich is a massive Cole Porter fan. Moreover, the party entrance scene was edited by Welles for presentation atf the AFI Lifetime Achievement Award ceremony, which was on 9 February 1975. Bogdanovich's heavy involvement in TOSOTW (aside from having been around in 1970, interviewing Welles as it began) was really from 1974-5, when they were focusing on re-shooting all the Brooks Otterlake scenes previously shot with Rich Little, and he and Welles would have naturally talked at length about what they were both working on. At the time, Bogdanovich was immersed in the production and post-production of his Cole Porter musical 'At Long Last Love'. It came out on 1 March 1975.

I had always assumed they would try and get Michel Legrand to do the music, to tie it in more closely with F FOR FAKE. He is a jazz composer, although he may be retired by now.

Oh no, Legrand is still very much working these days, even at 85! I've always thought it was a fair assumption that Welles would have approached Legrand for the score - the published script specifies a jazz score, the 'F for Fake' score by Legrand is beautiful, and Legrand was first hired by the Paris-based Les Films de l'Astrophore through their existing contacts, and they were producing TOSOTW as well as FAKE. Legrand really was one of the hottest film score composers in 1970s France, so I almost find it hard to believe they wouldn't have approached him.

[RayKelly]

I had always assumed they would try and get Michel Legrand to do the music, to tie it in more closely with F FOR FAKE. He is a jazz composer, although he may be retired by now.

At the May 1, 2015, Welles conference at Indiana University, Filip Jan Rymsza said that Legrand is one of the composers that producers are looking at to score TOSOTW.
http://www.wellesnet.com/the-other-side-of-the-wind-what-we-learned-at-indiana-university/

[JMcBride]

Legrand is still very much working these days, even at 85! I've always thought it was a fair assumption that Welles would have approached Legrand for the score - the published script specifies a jazz score, the 'F for Fake' score by Legrand is beautiful, and Legrand was first hired by the Paris-based Les Films de l'Astrophore through their existing contacts, and they were producing TOSOTW as well as FAKE. Legrand really was one of the hottest film score composers in 1970s France, so I almost find it hard to believe they wouldn't have approached him.

When we were working on the earlier attempt to complete the film, I asked Gary to check with Legrand to see if he would be willing to write the music for THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND, since he had done such a brilliant job with F FOR FAKE and seemed simpatico with Welles. Gary asked Legrand if he would be willing to score OTHER WIND, and he said, "I always assumed I would."

I am glad Legrand is still working at an advanced age. He is a master film composer, and his music would give the light contrapuntal tone Welles clearly wanted, in view of the scores he used for his 41 minutes of edited footage. The music is important to balance the tragic elements of the film while also conveying the satirical elements. The film-within-the-film in particularly would benefit from careful and appropriate scoring.

[Le Chiffre]

Thanks Joe, welcome to the board. If they do get Legrand - and I hope they can - that gives rise to an interesting question: how much influence would his music have over the editing? I find myself wondering how much influence it may have had over the editing of F FOR FAKE. As Welles himself said, "A film is never right until it's right musically."

Found this interesting article on how the music sometimes influences the film, rather than the other way around, which I assume is the normal way.
"Which comes first, the movie or the music?":
http://www.classicalmpr.org/story/2014/ ... re-picture

[Wich2]

>As Welles himself said, "A film is never right until it's right musically."<

Chief, especially for someone like Orson, imprinted as a youth by Silents, then coming as age as a creator in Radio, I think that was VERY deep in the man.

-Craig