the new f-for-fake - is it the same as the old f-for-fake

[jaime marzol]

i received the new f-for-fake, and it looks fabulous. the intro by bogdanovich is cool, the commentary is good, liked very much hearing oja, and it's about time that graver was on a commentary track, enjoyed hearing him very much.

still waiting for the bonus disc. does anyone have it, can you tell me anything about it?

this is only speculation because i have not yet put 2 tvs side by side and played the old f and the new f side by side, but i'm guessing there have been some changes. little tidbits are added at the end or the begining of scenes. this is only speculation because i have not compared yet. has anyone?

i also suspect there are some differences in the 2 versions of chimes i have, both are commercial dvds recently released.

i know we have 3 versions of arkadin, maybe 4 if the one in munich comes out

3 versions of touch of evil

3 versions of othello

2 versions of the trial

2 versions chimes (maybe 3 if the 2 dvds are different)

2 versions of macbeth

one of our members sent me a tv copy of the stranger that has a bit of a different ending. robinson atop the ladder says he'll wait, and begins to puff his pipe till he is completely engulfed in smoke, then they dissolve to a white screen and the THE END.

[Tony]

Jaime:

Aren't there more than 3 versions of Othello?

1. Cannes: 1952
2. Release version: 1952
3. British release: 1955
4. Beatrice's version: 1992
5. "French version": which may or may not be one of the above.

My memory may be faulty on this.

[L French]

Jaime:

You bring up a very interesting point, which is that almost every Welles film exists in two or more versions! (except for CITIZEN KANE).


MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS

Of course we only have the version that was released, but at least several different versions were considered before RKO finalized the release version.

THE STRANGER

While only the release version of this film exists, Welles said he had filmed (and wanted to include in his version) long sequences in South America, where Kindler is followed by Edward G. Robinson. Althought Welles indicated the South American sequences were actually shot, there is some question about this, as few stills have turned up to support Welles claims, but the sequence in well documented in Welles and Huston's original script for The STRANGER.


THE LADY FROM SHANGHAI

While there are two versions of this film, nobody seems to have every seen the longer version that Welles prepared, Before Columbia's boss Harry Cohn went ballastic on Welles. James Naremore apparently saw a longer version of the film in Europe, and there was quite obviously a longer version of the film which was seen in 1946 by Harry Cohn, that he didn't understand, (and that is now only available by reading the original script), so it seems unlikely that any of this footage exists for any kind of restoration.


MACBETH

Like TOUCH OF EVIL, a longer 108 minute version of
MACBETH was found in the seventies by UCLA archivist Robert Gitt and put into release, supplanting the original much shorter 86 minute release version, which is now no longer available. (It's perhaps worth noting that approxomately 7 minutes of the the longer version's running time is actually due to the musical overture of composer Jaques Ibert, which on the video release is included not at the beginning of the film, but at the end!). UCLA's Robert Gitt tells me he is currently working on a restoration of both versions of MACBETH, which he hopes Paramount will have the good sense to release on DVD (in either a two disc, or double sided one disc set), as they now own the rights to the Republic Pictures library.


OTHELLO

OTHELLO was first screened in Europe at the Cannes film festival in 1952, although three years were to elapse before United Artists obtained the rights from Welles, and released the film in New York (on September 12, 1955), at the Paris Theater. In the interim, Welles prepared a slightly different version for American audiences. The new version included the sub-title "The Moor of Venice," and was also three minutes shorter, with slightly different editing. The original opening credits that had been spoken by Welles (over various landscapes of Venice) were now replaced with printed titles. This change was made at the request of United Artists executives. The soundtrack was also changed, with some actors – including Michael MacLiammoir – partially or completely dubbed by Welles. Suzanne Cloutier, who played Desdemona, was completely dubbed by Gudrun Ure, who played Desdemona in Welles' theatrical production of Othello, which was staged in the fall of 1951 (under the auspices of Laurence Olivier), at London's St. James Theater, to help finance the final editing of OTHELLO. A slightly different print of the version released by United Artists in 1955 was found in a Fort Lee, New Jersey film vault, and was used as the basis for the 1992 Castle Hill-Beatrice Welles "restoration" that was subsequently released on video and DVD. So all of the versions that came out of Welles OTHELLO in the fifties, only the 1992 re-issue could be called "illegitimate."


Mr. ARKADIN (CONFIDENTIAL REPORT)

As Glenn Anders reported in another thread, Welles preview version of this film apparently played in London in June of 1955, while the Maestro was performing in MOBY DICK at London's St James Theater. After that one showing, Welles preferred cut of the film was apparently never seen again! But ARKADIN still exsists in several different forms, since the film is now in public domain. The Munich and Luxemberg Film Musuems have recently done a reconstruction of the film, resulting in a 105 minute MR. ARKADIN which will be shown in August at the Locarno Film Festival, but (for God's Sake why) will not be included on the upcoming Criterion DVD.


TOUCH OF EVIL

The Original release version:

A 93 minute cut of the film that was released by Universal in 1958. This was the only version of the film available until 1976.

The Preview Version:

A longer, 108 minute version that was used by Universal for early test screenings. Unfavorable audience reaction led Universal to cut approximately 15 minutes from this version. It was this preview version that was accidentally found in the vaults at Universal in 1975. It was subsequently copied and made available in both 35 & 16mm. This is also the version Universal has most often released on homevideo.

The Re-edit version:

The 1998 restoration, that re-edits, eliminates and combines shots from the two earlier versions—all in accordance to the instructions Welles gave to Universal, in a detailed, 58 page memo to the head of the studio, Edward I. Muhl.


THE TRIAL

This film, was edited and completed by Orson Welles exactly as he planned it, by his own hand. However he himself elimated several scenes that were not included in the final version of the released film, including two fascinating scenes that are included in the published script of the film.


FALSTAFF

This is another case of an apparent Welles mystery. All indications would indicate that Welles final approved version of CHIMES AT MIDNIGH or FALSTAFF were released in both American and Europe, but running times have indicated a four miniute discrepancy. Two diffent versions are listed as either running 119 minutes or 115 minutes...

-

[Nate H]

slightly off topic, but does anyone know why the clip of the FFF trailer in One Man Band is in color and the actual full trailer is in such rough shape?

[jaime marzol]

lfrench, fabulous stuff on the trial. i saw those scenes, now i know what they were saying. the 2 versions of the trial i meant is desilu, and the one we all know that was restored by milestone films. also, in the trailer to the trial there is a snippet of joseph k crossing that deathcap in the daytime. would love to see that.

the othellos, i din't know the history, i knew the french othello the beatrice othello, and the one found in the barn and released intact by voyager.

notice that the organized big studios have one version of the film but universal had 2 of toe. frank brady does say that universal was in turmoil then.

[jaime marzol]

Lfrench, the printed text of the trial, you mean the book printed in the early 70s, or a more recent one?

[Tony]

Lawrence:

Wasn't there a scene in a brothel which was shot but edited out of Kane?

[Roger Ryan]

There was another scene shot for "Kane" in the printing press room which Welles cut. It had Kane personally destroying the typeset front page, forcing Solly and his staff to redo it to include the "declaration of principles". There are existing stills for this scene and the brothel one.

[jaime marzol]

kane destroying the front page press set would have been a great touch. i think i read that the brothel scene was cast but not filmed but i can't be sure.

[etimh]

Nate H: no, you're not off-topic. These guys just get distracted easily...:p

Nate H asked: "Does anyone know why the clip of the FFF trailer in One Man Band is in color and the actual full trailer is in such rough shape?"

I'm interested in this as well--anyone have any inside info or explanation for the b&w trailer on the new DVD? Does the full color one exist somewhere? Has anybody seen it?

Tim

[jaime marzol]

the crappy one is the workprint that was used to make the edit of the pretty version. seems the only one i've seen is the workprint. maybe the positive, if there was one, is lost and no one wants to spend the money to make another positive from the timecode on the workprint. or maybe one was never made at all since distributors refused the preview. but all this is guess work based on what i've read here and there.

do i remember graver saying the dustributors didn't want to make a positive from welles' workprint?

[Roger Ryan]

I thought I read that the Munich Filmmuseum had the restored full-color version of the "F-For-Fake" trailer, but that Criterion wasn't interested in licensing it for the DVD. Don't know if this is true or not. Regarding the "Kane" brothel scene - existing informal photos show Welles, Cotten, Sloane and others relaxing with the dancers from the party scene in an upscale apartment set. Crew members and equipment can be seen in the background, so one gets the impression the stills were taken in between actual "takes" of the brothel scene.

[R Kadin]

Criterion already had (a print of?/licence for?) the B&W trailer for its 1995 laserdisc release. Perhaps it was simply more cost-effective to stick with that.

And I wouldn't rule out the possibility that various parties could try and claim a vested interest in any restored version or might seek to barter its use for further benefits. Given the litigious history of so many Welles projects, just the prospect of such a clamour would be enough to wave off even the most conscientious distributor, I should think. But, here I do conjecture...

[Harvey Chartrand]

That's an outlandish theory, Mr. Kadin. (Can I call you "Ark"?)
Who but the most delusional among us would think they could make a buck off that 10-minute-long, 27-year-old F FOF FAKE trailer?
It all comes down to Criterion not wanting to go the extra mile after doing such a splendid job on the rest of the F FOR FAKE package. Something to do with scheduling, I recall reading in an earlier post.
What I don't get is that the F FOR FAKE trailer is beautifully restored on THE ONE-MAN BAND documentary made a decade ago, but all murky and choppy as a standalone DVD extra.
What a waste! This was the unique opportunity for that particular item to show up on DVD – and the ship has sailed!

[etimh]

Harvey: I agree with your dismay and lament about Criterion dropping the ball on this one. But I have to disagree with your observation about R Kadin's theory being "outlandish."

With all of the selfish and despicable activities that have surrounded the control of Welles' films and "estate," who but the most delusional among us would NOT assume that these vultures would go to battle over this short (but extremely important) little film?

Whether for pride or profit, many of these folks have proven that they're capable of, well, just about anything.

Tim