BRIGHT LIGHTS 55 TOSTW Interview

[Terry]

Those of you with the published screenplay may be able to answer how often the movie-within-the-movie appears. Is it just in scenes where Billy (or whoever) is screening it or other times when it's being projected (as in the rumoured drive-in scene?)

[Tony]

In McBride, Gary Graver clearly states that Welles wanted Hanneford's TOSOTW (the film within the film) to be about 50% of Welles's TOSOTW, and Oja is a stickler for keeping to what Welles wanted to do. Remember how she refused to include the Patty McCormick footage in Don Quixote that Mauro Bonanini has, so he left the project? And 15 years later she's still suing him to get that footage- not to use it, but to get it so he doesn't use it. And Beatrice sued about the 1998 version of Touch of Evil because she didn't want it sold as a movie directed by Orson Welles, because it isn't- it's directed by Welles and Walter Murch, and...

So it seems to me that if Oja has any control (and we know she will), and if Beatrice gets involved again (like the last time when she destroyed the Showtime deal) we're getting a 50/50 OSOTW/OSOTW, if we get anything. (Actually, Beatrice just wants a documentary about the Making of TOSOTW, a position that is actually more artistically honest than finishing the film, though it would bring in less dollars.)

As for why Oja should/shouldn't ask for a million dollars, she and Welles invested more than a million 1970s dollars of their own money into the film-not to mention years of working on it for no salary, and trying to get it released. And she is the co-author and a star of the film as well. I hope she gets it.

[Glenn Anders]

I pretty much agree with Christopher and Tony that Oja Kodar has the best legal and moral rights to THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND. But, in a practical sense, a modest percentage of Something is better than 100% of Nothing. And Time, Welles' Old Gypsy Man, plays on.

The script version of TOSOTW I have, which actually bears the signature of Orson Welles on its title page, gives only a few indications of how the film-within-a-film is to be used, most of which I've noted. Nevertheless, the opportunities for a sympathetic, skilled editor are endless, I should think. However, if the film-within-a-film is really to be 50% of the finished production, that would add a great deal to what already must be a very long picture. The script, with only indirect references to Hannaford's last work, runs 159 pages!

I think swift, tight editing of the film-within-a-film might give the impression of 50-50 without using all that's there.

Glenn

[Tony]

Walter Murch is the man for the job, I think.

[rizibo]

The script version of TOSOTW I have, which actually bears the signature of Orson Welles on its title page, gives only a few indications of how the film-within-a-film is to be used, most of which I've noted.

On what page of the 159 page script of TOSOTW is the scene where Billy Bud screens the film to the film executive? If this scene is in the beginning of the screenplay then this will be the method to cut to the film within the film with the Hannaford party sequences alternating with the scenes with Billy Bud talking about the film directed by Hannaford and then showing the film within the film. The sequences seen in the movie within the movie should be symbolic of the contiguous scenes with Hannaford. This film doesn't require a great editor but instead it needs a great director to find the scenes in the film within the film which are symbolic of the scenes with Hannaford and splice those scenes together. I can't think of living director who is intellectually able to do this. Eisenstien was good in splicing scenes which were meaningfull to each other like the carnage in the steps of odessa scene with the violence against the people alternating with the baby carriage going down the steps (heightening the danger felt in the scene by showing the baby carriage going perilously without guidance). Kubrick was also great in splicing scenes which were symbolically connected like in 2001 A Space Odessey where the gorilla throws up a bone which was used as weapon and cutting to satellite having the same shape as the bone showing that the satellite is weapon also. There aren't director like Welles and these other two anymore so I doubt anything great will come from anyone working on this movie.

[Tony]

Like I said, Walter Murch is the man.

Read "The Conversations: Walter Murch and the Art of Editing Films" where he discusses editing Apocolypse now, AN Redux, Touch of Evil 98 and others. A pure genius editor and sound designer. The only person I know of who could handle TOSOTW and DQ. Both an intellectual and intuitive master.

[chipm]

Love Murch. When I ran a post facility, I made his "In the Blink of an Eye" mandatory reading for anyone who was editing there. (This was in the late 90's before the other books with Minghella came out.)

Though I am a big fan, I think AN REDUX is a disaster. Horribly paced. And takes the ethereal timeless beauty of the original and turns it into on the nose statements about the time it is about. Bad choices at almost every turn.

It will be interesting to see if and when TOSOTW gets edited who will take on the Herculean task...

C

[rizibo]

Tony, I think Murch would be great. Murch worked with Coppola to make Apocalypse Now which is one of the greatest movies ever, especially the sound which is what Murch worked on in this movie. A Coppola/Murch combo would be great for the post production of the TOSOTW. Another great director/editor combination was Martin Scorcese/Thelma Schoonmaker who made The Raging Bull. The Raging Bull had difficult editing challenges with the use of color (Lamotta's home movie) and black and white sequences, different film formats, slow motion and fast motion and still images. TOSOTW also has similiar editing challenges as The Raging Bull. I think Scorcese/Schoonmaker combination is the best for TOSOTW. I should not say that no one can do a good job in editing TOSOTW. I think it will take a good editor like Murch or Schoonmaker paired with a sophisticated director like Coppola or Scorsese to mold TOSOTW to the greatness that Welles had envisioned.

[rizibo]

Love Murch. Though I am a big fan, I think AN REDUX is a disaster. Horribly paced. And takes the ethereal timeless beauty of the original and turns it into on the nose statements about the time it is about. Bad choices at almost every turn.

Redux didn't excite me either. The reconstruction of The Touch of Evil by Murch didn't really improve the film for me either. I think Murch is better in making films for the first time instead of redoing them.

[Roger Ryan]

The reconstruction of The Touch of Evil by Murch didn't really improve the film for me either. I think Murch is better in making films for the first time instead of redoing them.

But, of course, Murch and Schmidlin were simply following Welles' memo when they created the '98 "Touch Of Evil". Any change in pacing would have been dictated by Welles' "wishes" which is the exact problem TOSOTW would face if edited according to vague statements like "the film-within-the-film needs to be 50% of the running time".

To answer the earlier question, according to the script of TOSOTW, in combination with notes left by Welles, the screening room scene between Billy and the studio executive was intended to be intercut with various hangers-on arriving at Hannaford's ranch for the birthday party. I imagine the scene would show us the first images of Hannaford's film which would also be seen playing at Hannaford's ranch and, after the power goes out at the ranch, it would be shown at the drive-in theater at the film's end. According to McBride, Bogdanovich was under the impression that Welles intended Hannaford's film to be playing in the background of all these scenes, but not to dominate screen time for long periods of time.

Interestingly, the Munich Film Museum's compilation of Welles-edited scenes from TOSOTW features what I suspect is an early edit of the screening room scene that features more shots from Hannaford's film than I had previously seen, including numerous rapid-fire shots of John Dale attempting "doughnuts" on his motorcycle under what appears to be a freeway overpass. When Welles screened this scene at the AFI awards dinner, this material was cut down and the motorcycle doing "doughnuts" was gone completely. For me, this shorter version played a lot better. Did Welles feel the same way or did he simply edit the scene down due to time constraints imposed by the award show?

What we do know is that Welles was not a fan of films of great length and preferred to keep his own work to a two-hour running time or less. A 159 page screenplay would equal about a two-and-a-half hour running time. Since none of the extant screenplays detail the film-within-the-film footage, that footage could conceivably add another 30 minutes or more to the running time if the 50% rule was mandated. I seriously doubt Welles would have allowed TOSOTW to run for three hours! Whatever footage exists, I would imagine it best to keep the final cut to around two hours and include the rest as DVD extras.

[rizibo]

The reconstruction of The Touch of Evil by Murch didn't really improve the film for me either. I think Murch is better in making films for the first time instead of redoing them.

But, of course, Murch and Schmidlin were simply following Welles' memo when they created the '98 "Touch Of Evil". Any change in pacing would have been dictated by Welles' "wishes" which is the exact problem TOSOTW would face if edited according to vague statements like "the film-within-the-film needs to be 50% of the running time".

To answer the earlier question, according to the script of TOSOTW, in combination with notes left by Welles, the screening room scene between Billy and the studio executive was intended to be intercut with various hangers-on arriving at Hannaford's ranch for the birthday party. I imagine the scene would show us the first images of Hannaford's film which would also be seen playing at Hannaford's ranch and, after the power goes out at the ranch, it would be shown at the drive-in theater at the film's end. According to McBride, Bogdanovich was under the impression that Welles intended Hannaford's film to be playing in the background of all these scenes, but not to dominate screen time for long periods of time.

Interestingly, the Munich Film Museum's compilation of Welles-edited scenes from TOSOTW features what I suspect is an early edit of the screening room scene that features more shots from Hannaford's film than I had previously seen, including numerous rapid-fire shots of John Dale attempting "doughnuts" on his motorcycle under what appears to be a freeway overpass. When Welles screened this scene at the AFI awards dinner, this material was cut down and the motorcycle doing "doughnuts" was gone completely. For me, this shorter version played a lot better. Did Welles feel the same way or did he simply edit the scene down due to time constraints imposed by the award show?

What we do know is that Welles was not a fan of films of great length and preferred to keep his own work to a two-hour running time or less. A 159 page screenplay would equal about a two-and-a-half hour running time. Since none of the extant screenplays detail the film-within-the-film footage, that footage could conceivably add another 30 minutes or more to the running time if the 50% rule was mandated. I seriously doubt Welles would have allowed TOSOTW to run for three hours! Whatever footage exists, I would imagine it best to keep the final cut to around two hours and include the rest as DVD extras.

I don't think that the total playing time of the movie is that important. All of us have seen movies lasting more than 3 hours long and wished the movie didn't end. If someone can copy Welles style with the quick cutting, like the scenes we have seen of TOSOTW in The One Man Band, then the sequences can be entertaining. To only show the movie within the movie sequences for a prolonged period of time would be a mistake but to cut back and forth between the movie within the movie scenes and the Hannaford scenes would be better.

You make a good point that in Touch of Evil being redone according to Welles memo didn't make the film much better and the same could happen with TOSOTW. One may have to make a decision whether to abide by the director's dying wishes or try to make a film better than what Welles imagined intentions were. I am for making the best movie as possible because Welles probably would have changed his mind also while cutting the film. I would try to retain the theme of the film.

Thanks for giving information about the Billy Bud scenes. It gives good structure for introducing the film within the film during the movie. I am excited about how this will be done.

[Glenn Anders]

I believe that a combination of Murch, Bogdanovich, and Schmidlin, ramrodded by Frank Marshall, would be "the dream team."

Roger, you are correct in answering rizibo's question that ". . . the screening room scene between Billy and the studio executive was intended to be intercut with various hangers-on arriving at Hannaford's ranch for the birthday party." That begins on Page 20 of the script. But, in terms of Welles' intentions, the film-within-a-film is in there almost from the beginning.

On Page 4 (page three of the actual text), Welles shows us "A 'STILL' FROM HANNAFORD'S FILM," and comments:

"Hannaford's own unfinished motion
picture is part of the testimony:

"'The Other Side of the Wind' . . .

"It has been left just as it was
when they screened it -- on the
last day of his life."

Then, as I noted earlier, "THE FILM BEGINS":

P. 4 -- The FLASHBACKS [my emphasis] begin with Jake shooting a scene for his movie in progress, depicting a Turkish steam bath. . . .

P. 5 -- . . . The viewer only becomes aware we are on a sound stage watching a movie being filmed when director JAKE HANNAFORD'S [John Huston's] voice rings out, bringing the scene to an end.

JAKE
Okay . . . Cut!

P. 12 -- MAX DAVID [Geoffrey Land, very good in this film], the latest (and who knows, maybe the last) big chief of one of the last big movie companies, stands in front of a blank screen . . . .

P. 16 -- . . . Elsewhere some of the girls (the nudes from the steambath) are grouped around old MANOLITO [Benny Rubin?] (JAKE'S pet gypsy musician -- who is supposed to play the part of a mysterious OLD MAN in his FILM).

[Here, I think, rather like Paul Misraki's score for CONFIDENTIAL REPORT/MR. ARKADIN, is the main score for THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND.]

P. 20 -- A MOVIE SCREEN IN THE STUDIO PROJECTION ROOM

The lights go out. THE FILM begins. BILLY O'BOYLE [Norman Foster, type casting] sitting behind MAX DAVID, is doing his best to act as interpreter, salesman and apologist.

---------------

My point is that "The Other Side of the Wind" is interjected into THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND within a minute of its running time. Producer Max David is shown in the screening room within several minutes more, and several minutes after that, a rough cut of "The Other Side of the Wind" formally begins in that screening room, with Billy O'Boyle trying to explain the action to Max David.

----------------

From the stuff I've seen, I also agree with Roger that there is quite a lot of material of Billy Bud (and I would judge, Johnny Dale) doing "doughnuts," showing off, on his motorcycle. These shots are done on various stocks, some with tints, some in sepia, all with dust blowing up around him.

The intent appears to be to contrast "The Other Side of the Wind" with THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND, to contrast one kind of "reality" with another.

Though we can't have Bernard Herrmann make music for the film, it no doubt would benefit from a classic score. Perhaps John Barry might be willing and able to come up with one more jazzy BODY HEAT-type composition, with a Gypsy twist.

I hope the troopers are taking notes on all our speculations.

Glenn

[Tony]

I don't think anyone takes note of our online verbosity, Glenn. Except us, that is. However, I almost agree with your dream team of Schmidlin, Murch Bogdanovich and Marshall: Still, Gary Graver probably knew more about the film than anybody. Marshall knows a great deal. Schmidlin has proved himself in terms of integrity, and so, of course, has Murch. But I really don't get the impression that Bogadanovich knows a lot about TOSOTW: I don't think he was around for most of it, and then later had the falling out with Welles.

Personally, I'm incresingly with Beatrice on this one: Nobody could/can edit an Orson Welles film except Orson Welles. So: release a dvd with the 50 minutes or whatever it was that he actually edited, put the rest of the raw footage on some other discs, and have the team do their version of TOSOTW, just as Stefan did his version of Arkadin, on another disc.

It seems a truism, but we will never have Welles's version(s) of anything he didn't finish. Anything else is just BS. And though I hate to agree with someone who massacred Othello, the postion I have just stated is precisely Beatrice's: "Don't put my father's name on anything that he didn't finish while he was alive". And apparently, though she scotched the Showtime deal on this principle, she did state that she wouldn't be against a documentary on the making of TOSOTW, using the original footage.

[rizibo]

It seems a truism, but we will never have Welles's version(s) of anything he didn't finish. Anything else is just BS.

I generally agree with this but it doesn't necessarily have to be true. In Frank Brady's book Citizen Welles, Brady describes how Universal took the editing of Touch of Evil away from Welles and Brady shows how Universal did a bad job in editing the film. However there was a scene edited well by Universal in which Welles is quoted as saying "I'd like to congratulate whoever edited the street scene in which Vargas drives into the traffic jam, fails to hear Susan, and continues across international boundry. The cutting here is not only superior to what it was at the stage when I left it, but actually better than the effort I'd been hoping for." I think it is possible for Bogdanovich to edit the film well especially since there is 40 minutes already edited by Welles for Bogdanovich to see and try to emulate the style present. Bogdanovich should try to exceed the excellence in editing done by Welles. It's hard to go to the master one better but it is not impossible.

As for who should edit the movie, Welles asked Bogdanovich to edit the film after he died so morally he should be involved with the editing.

[rizibo]

Roger, you are correct in answering rizibo's question that ". . . the screening room scene between Billy and the studio executive was intended to be intercut with various hangers-on arriving at Hannaford's ranch for the birthday party." That begins on Page 20 of the script. But, in terms of Welles' intentions, the film-within-a-film is in there almost from the beginning.

Thanks Glenn for the info about how the film within the film starts.