Simon Callow on Orson Welles (BBC Radio, 8th May 2018)

[Dan_UK]

Simon Callow on Orson Welles
Great Lives, Series 45 Episode 6 of 9

The actor Simon Callow nominates one of the giants of the golden age of Hollywood, Orson Welles. He once said of himself he 'started at the top and worked his way down' never managing to recreate the success he had aged 26 with Citizen Kane, which he wrote, directed and starred in. Welles' friend and collaborator Henry Jaglom talks about knowing him for the last years of his life when Hollywood had turned its back on him and he was strapped for cash and looking for work.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b1r3hs

Can anyone not in the UK confirm they can see the download link. If not, I'll upload it somewhere.

[jbrooks]

I'm in the US and see the link.

[Terry]

Thanks, Dan, that's great. I'd never heard anything from the Jaglom lunch tapes before. There was once an Amazon listing for an audiobook containing them, but it was never published.

[Dan_UK]

I'd never heard anything from the Jaglom lunch tapes before.

Really? I've got these if you want them?

Henry Jaglom on Orson Welles (7th Ave Project, KUSP, 2003.08.25) (68 mins)
Lunches With Orson Welles (New York Times Book Review, 2013.07.12) (42 mins)
The Lost Tapes of Orson Welles Episode 1 (BBC Radio 4, 2013.12.19) (30 min)
The Lost Tapes of Orson Welles Episode 2 (BBC Radio 4, 2013.12.26) (30 min)
The Road to Cinema Podcast #7 with director Henry Jaglom (2014.09.19) (72 mins)

[Terry]

Oh my god yes. Please.

[Dan_UK]

Here you go.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/axzpeeeb5 ... _Tapes.rar
For the tapes themselves, the 2-part BBC show probably contains most. The others contain shorter extracts, plus long interviews with Jaglom.

[Terry]

Fantastic, thanks. These will be fascinating listening. I'll try extracting all the lunch tape excerpts and compiling them into their own thing.

[Terry]

Thanks again, Dan, those are great, especially the BBC episodes. I remember seeing them on their website years ago, but they were unavailable for streaming for one reason or another.

I guess I can see why no audiobook version was released: while PB's interview tapes from the 60s and 70s were lo-fi while openly trying to capture intelligible audio, Jaglom's recordings hidden in a bag in a noisy restaurant can be a bit challenging to listen to. But Welles unvarnished, or perhaps the version of Welles he decided to invent and perform for Jaglom during those lunches, is a fascinating thing. I found the subsequent book to be eye-opening as well, and lament that it had to have scandal attached to it.

[jbrooks]

I found the subsequent book to be eye-opening as well, and lament that it had to have scandal attached to it.

My theory on the scandal is that it's essentially made up. Jaglom claims that Welles asked him to record their conversations (for use in a later autobiography) and to keep the recorder out of sight so that Welles would not be constantly reminded of it. Then at some point shortly before he died, Welles supposedly proclaimed to Oja that he was furious with Jaglom for secretly recording him without his permission. There is no indication from anyone that Welles ever expressed this anger to Jaglom. If Welles had, Jaglom surely would have reminded him that he was making the recordings at Welles' request. Certainly, there are many examples of Welles flying off the handle and raging about something with little thought and no justification. So we can't fully credit Welles' supposed outrage even if we accept the reports of it as true.

It is very telling also that in his phone conversation with his old mentor Skipper Hill the day before Welles died, Welles referred to Jaglom as "my friend" and gave no hint of any rift between them.

[jbrooks]

It is also telling that Welles apparently asked Skipper to record their telephone conversations so that he could use the recordings to help with his autobiography. This is exactly the same request Welles made to Jaglom.

[Terry]

You may well be right, Brooks, but Welles was believed by several of the people closest to him, and that's where the upset about the book came from. I wonder if the audio of him saying to put the tape recorder in a bag so he didn't have to see it would make any difference, but that bit hasn't been released to my knowledge. Welles was known to feign rage when he wanted to get out of rehearsing something for which he didn't have a clear idea of how to execute, but I can't imagine what pretending to be angry with Jaglom was supposed to achieve.

[jbrooks]

I wasn't suggesting that Welles was feigning anger. I was suggesting that his (allegedly) expressed anger was not justified.

The hard evidence is that Welles considered Jaglom his friend on the night Welles died. All evidence on the other side is hearsay (much of it, double hearsay).

[nickleschichoney]

I was suggesting that his (allegedly) expressed anger was not justified.

Or Jaglom just made up the story that Welles requested to be recorded with a hidden tape recorder. I mean, on the surface, that whole claim sounds fishy: "I made these recordings with a tape recorder hidden away from Welles's sight, but don't worry -- he wanted it that way."

I'm convinced Jaglom just recorded his conversations with Welles for a rainy day, knowing it would bring him some attention if he brought them to light. Nothing more. If he really intended to be respectful to Welles as a friend and filmmaker, he wouldn't have brought along Peter Biskind to contribute a horrific intro (which includes the debunked claim that "Rosebud" was a nickname for Marion Davies's vagina) and a couple of lousy pages of footnotes in the back. (I can't believe Biskind spends a note explaining what a 35mm blimp is, but says nothing about the blacklist.)

The hard evidence is that Welles considered Jaglom his friend on the night Welles died.

He might have called Henry Jaglom his "friend" in that Roger Hill convo because:
1. Roger Hill likely had no idea who Jaglom was, nor what his relationship was to Welles -- Welles would have to fill him in somehow.
2. At the time of making SOMEONE TO LOVE, which Welles wanted to talk about, Welles and Jaglom were, indeed, friends.
3. Welles didn't want to go into details about his recent breakup with Jaglom because he wanted to maintain an optimistic tone.

In that final conversation, Welles wanted to muse about new projects and new horizons. And so, he lied that Jaglom was still a friend.

And by the way, regarding those friends of Welles who said he was betrayed by Jaglom, it would be very strange if all of them were lying.

[jbrooks]

(which includes the debunked claim that "Rosebud" was a nickname for Marion Davies's vagina)

When exactly was that claim debunked?

[nickleschichoney]

When exactly was that claim debunked?

Brady couldn't trace it any earlier than the '70s: "How Orson (or Mankiewicz) could have ever discovered this most private utterance is unexplained and why it took over thirty-five years for such a suggestive rationale to emerge, although the origins of everything to do with CITIZEN KANE had continuously been placed under literary and cinematic microscopes for decades, is also unknown" (p. 280 of Kindle edition).

Gore Vidal, when asked about where he heard this, could only reply that he got this factoid from Charles Lederer who got it from Marion Davies: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1989/08/17/rosebud/.

So, the rosebud-as-clitoris (I misremembered what exact part it was equated with) thing is total hearsay.